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I think it primarily comes down to cost. I know that the residents of many buildings would revolt if their condo boards tried to require sprinkler installation. The legislatures seem to be receptive to the cost argument, too. The cost to install sprinklers would probably bankrupt some residents.
Some might be interested in the cost of fire sprinklers.
There are two standards involved we have NFPA #13R and NFPA #13. NFPA #13R is for residential buildings generally limited to four stories in height but this depends on the construction type, in addition to the footprint size of the building, but generally speaking most (most, not all) condo's four stories or less would fall under the less restrictive NFPA #13R.
For example with a NFPA #13R system I would not be required to install sprinklers in elevator shafts, elevator equipment rooms and penthouses where with NFPA #13 I would. Also the density (amount of water) required for a 13R system is .05 gpm/sq ft whereas a 13 system would require .10 gpm/sq ft over the operating area. The higher the density the bigger the pipes and the bigger the pipes the more they cost.
A typical price for 60,000 sq ft four story building is going to run somewhere around $100,000 if the city can supply a decent water pressure where a fire pump is not needed. Here in Georgia I would venture a guess that 80% of cities have the water pressure required to avoid a fire pump. If a fire pump is needed add $50,000 to the cost which would cover the pump installation plus the electric (we need separate service so if the electric is shut down the pump will continue to operate) which can get pricey.
Assume the worst $150,000.
60,000 sq ft is approximately 36 condo units of 1,700 sq ft each. If a fire pump is not needed $100,000/36=$2,800 per condo and if a fire pump is needed we would be looking at $150,000/36=$4,100 per unit.
Thing to remember is the larger the building gets the price per unit goes down the reason being a lot of your costs aren't for the sprinklers in the units it's for the fire pump and controls... that fire pump is going to cost you $50,000 if it is for one unit or a thousand units.
The money isn't in the sprinklers for the dwelling units it's mostly in the fire pump and system control room
For a 60,000 sq ft building with 500 sprinkler heads you're looking at half the cost of material right there in that photo. $40,000 for what you see in a single room in that photo and $20,000 for the rest of the building.
That is for new construction and now for existing.
For most construction types you're going to have sprinklers concealed behind soffits in existing construction. These are a real pain in the rear end and everyone needs to keep in mind a mans home is his castle even if it a condo. Installers just can't go into private homes whenever they feel like it so the job easily takes twice as long and then add to it the cost of the soffit.
To retrofit I could see a 60,000 sq ft building costing $250,000 or $7,000 per unit if each unit is 1,700 sq ft.
If a building is a high rise building, a high-rise building is defined in Chapter 2 of the IBC as a “building with an occupied floor located more than 75 feet (22 860 mm) above the lowest level of fire department access", the costs are going to go up but generally speaking if you have a 12 story building you got lots and lots of condo units to spread the costs around.
Biggest cost items for a high rise, and there are many of them, is the design must per per the more restrictive NFPA #13 standard plus the need for a secondary source of power for the fire pumps which must have automatic transfer switches. Generators that will power 200 HP motors are not cheap and then you need a secondary source of water such as a ground storage tank. Figure the cost of a tank at $1.30 per gallon but you might (most likely will) need a 100,000 gallon tank.
So what it all comes down to is how much is a life, or maybe a dozen lives, worth? Me thinks it is worth a lot if it's yours.
Properly installed and maintained automatic fire sprinkler systems help save lives. Because fire sprinkler systems react so quickly, they can dramatically reduce the heat, flames and smoke produced in a fire. Fire sprinklers have been around for more than a century, protecting commercial and industrial properties and public buildings, such as hotels and hospitals and high-rises.
When sprinklers are present, the chances of dying in a fire are reduced by 50-75% and the average property loss per fire is cut by 50-66%, compared to fires where sprinklers are not present.
NFPA has no record of a fire killing more than two people when a correctly designed and fully sprinklered public assembly, educational, institutional or residential building where the valve was open and the system was working properly.
Sprinklers are highly reliable. When present in the fire area, they operate in all but 7% of fires large enough to activate the system. Human error was a factor in almost all of the failures. The system was shut-off in almost two-thirds of the failures.
Most of the fires that resulted in death involved people falling to sleep while smoking.
And now you know more about fire sprinklers than you ever wanted to know!
Some might be interested in the cost of fire sprinklers.
There are two standards involved we have NFPA #13R and NFPA #13. NFPA #13R is for residential buildings generally limited to four stories in height but this depends on the construction type, in addition to the footprint size of the building, but generally speaking most (most, not all) condo's four stories or less would fall under the less restrictive NFPA #13R.
For example with a NFPA #13R system I would not be required to install sprinklers in elevator shafts, elevator equipment rooms and penthouses where with NFPA #13 I would. Also the density (amount of water) required for a 13R system is .05 gpm/sq ft whereas a 13 system would require .10 gpm/sq ft over the operating area. The higher the density the bigger the pipes and the bigger the pipes the more they cost.
A typical price for 60,000 sq ft four story building is going to run somewhere around $100,000 if the city can supply a decent water pressure where a fire pump is not needed. Here in Georgia I would venture a guess that 80% of cities have the water pressure required to avoid a fire pump. If a fire pump is needed add $50,000 to the cost which would cover the pump installation plus the electric (we need separate service so if the electric is shut down the pump will continue to operate) which can get pricey.
Assume the worst $150,000.
60,000 sq ft is approximately 36 condo units of 1,700 sq ft each. If a fire pump is not needed $100,000/36=$2,800 per condo and if a fire pump is needed we would be looking at $150,000/36=$4,100 per unit.
Thing to remember is the larger the building gets the price per unit goes down the reason being a lot of your costs aren't for the sprinklers in the units it's for the fire pump and controls... that fire pump is going to cost you $50,000 if it is for one unit or a thousand units.
The money isn't in the sprinklers for the dwelling units it's mostly in the fire pump and system control room
For a 60,000 sq ft building with 500 sprinkler heads you're looking at half the cost of material right there in that photo. $40,000 for what you see in a single room in that photo and $20,000 for the rest of the building.
That is for new construction and now for existing.
For most construction types you're going to have sprinklers concealed behind soffits in existing construction. These are a real pain in the rear end and everyone needs to keep in mind a mans home is his castle even if it a condo. Installers just can't go into private homes whenever they feel like it so the job easily takes twice as long and then add to it the cost of the soffit.
To retrofit I could see a 60,000 sq ft building costing $250,000 or $7,000 per unit if each unit is 1,700 sq ft.
If a building is a high rise building, a high-rise building is defined in Chapter 2 of the IBC as a “building with an occupied floor located more than 75 feet (22 860 mm) above the lowest level of fire department access", the costs are going to go up but generally speaking if you have a 12 story building you got lots and lots of condo units to spread the costs around.
Biggest cost items for a high rise, and there are many of them, is the design must per per the more restrictive NFPA #13 standard plus the need for a secondary source of power for the fire pumps which must have automatic transfer switches. Generators that will power 200 HP motors are not cheap and then you need a secondary source of water such as a ground storage tank. Figure the cost of a tank at $1.30 per gallon but you might (most likely will) need a 100,000 gallon tank.
So what it all comes down to is how much is a life, or maybe a dozen lives, worth? Me thinks it is worth a lot if it's yours.
Properly installed and maintained automatic fire sprinkler systems help save lives. Because fire sprinkler systems react so quickly, they can dramatically reduce the heat, flames and smoke produced in a fire. Fire sprinklers have been around for more than a century, protecting commercial and industrial properties and public buildings, such as hotels and hospitals and high-rises.
Most of the fires that resulted in death involved people falling to sleep while smoking.
And now you know more about fire sprinklers than you ever wanted to know!
Yes, but its much appreciated!
And, yes, sprinklers do definitely help save lives. I'm curious to know, in the alternative, how many of these buildings (such as the Marco Polo building) have fire/water hoses on each floor. Mine does and, as I mentioned in an earlier post, it definitely helped to contain a building fire we had in 2014 pretty quickly.
I wouldn't mind paying my fair share for a sprinkler system, but for many, even $2,000 may as well be $1 million.
I am wondering why older high rise buildings are not required to add sprinkler systems besides the obvious fact that it would costly financially.
To add a sprinkler system is not a trivial engineering task. The piping, brackets, and the water contained in the pipes adds substantial weight to the building. Think what it would take to add a system to your house, times a hundred.
Some might be interested in the cost of fire sprinklers.
<trim excellent post>And now you know more about fire sprinklers than you ever wanted to know!
You are like me in a way. My daughter told her friends, "Don't ask my dad a question unless you really want to know the answer."
I assume this was on Oahu, where housing prices are astronomical due to population pressure. The landlord gets boatloads of money without upgrading, and his building is probably grandfathered in, so there's no legal requirement to add sprinklers.
Now I'm sure he got a ton of insurance money. It's a win-win! for him.
And, yes, sprinklers do definitely help save lives. I'm curious to know, in the alternative, how many of these buildings (such as the Marco Polo building) have fire/water hoses on each floor. Mine does and, as I mentioned in an earlier post, it definitely helped to contain a building fire we had in 2014 pretty quickly.
I wouldn't mind paying my fair share for a sprinkler system, but for many, even $2,000 may as well be $1 million.
These are called Standpipe Systems and are governed by NFPA #14 "Standard for the Installation of Standpipe and Hose Systems".
Most of the older buildings do have standpipes as do all buildings with a top ground floor greater than 32' above the lowest level of fire department access. This is why you will seldom, if ever, see a standpipe in a three story building but most often will in a four story building and always ill in a five story or greater building.
These makes sense, picture a 50 story building as a city turned on its end. In most cities you will always find a fire hydrant within 500' so why should a 50 story building be any different?
High rise buildings always have a standpipe system with a fire pump because the standard calls for 500 gpm plus 250 gpm for each additional standpipe (there are always two minimum) up to 1,250 gpm discharging 100 psi at the top outlet. By each additional standpipe each stairwell will end up having its own so in a building having three stairwells you would need 500+250+250=1,000 gpm discharging at 100 psi. This is a lot and now you are starting to look at some serious money.
A column of water weighs 0.433 psi per foot so in a 500 foot tall building we would be looking at a minimum pump size of (500*.433)+100=317 psi and that isn't counting head loss due to friction. You'd need around 350 psi pressure and that is a whole lot of pressure that would burst any toilet or water faucet around.
If all one has is a pipe going straight up the water in the tank will never get above the level of the water in the city water tanks without a booster pump. If the water level in the city tank is 150' you will have 150*.433=65 psi at ground level but as you go up the column you will lose .433 psi for every foot until you get to the top where you will have zero pressure.
Standpipes come in three different classes and most of them today have a single 2 1/2" outlet for fire department use only. The industry has largely done away with 1 1/2" hose designed for "occupant use" because the idea is stupid. A 1 1/2" hose with 125 psi is likely to get someone killed if not trained to use it....
I remember 40 years ago we'd design everything with 1 1/2" hoses for occupant use, we called them "pin racks", but these have nearly all disappeared because of lawyers and lawsuits. If a building catches on fire the last thing you want is to have a mother of five trying to battle a blaze using a hose she has never been trained to use. Tell you what, if that mother loses her life she will have more lawyers lining up to sue than Exxon had for the Valdez oil spill. Today it is "if there is a fire get the hell out and leave the hose and fire fighting to the trained professionals!".
In Georgia I haven't seen a pin rack unit in over 15 years, they are all gone.
NFPA Standards go back well over 100 years and where the hose for occupant use started in the 1920's when a man was expected to fight a fire to save his job. Today that thinking is gone (thank God for that) and life is valued more than a building that can be replaced.
The 2 1/2" outlets are for fire department use and they bring their own hoses. Even if the building has hose the fire department will refuse to use it because they don't know when it was last tested. A 2 1/2" hose that bursts under 200 psi is going to kill people in the stairwell. I'd bring my own hose too.
But yes, standpipes for fire department use are a very good idea. Picture it as a fire hydrant on every floor.
These two recent fires make you really think about fire safety in high-rises now. When I lived at the Jersey shore, the fire department did an inspection every year on our condominiums (which had sprinklers). Everything had to be tested, they entered each condo to make sure you had fire extinguishers that were tagged and visible, and the building had to have an outside lockbox with keys to all the units. I thought it was overkill at the time...but now I realize how lucky the residents in that town are.
They do sprinkler & fire alarm check where I live every August and we only have 3 floors.
They do sprinkler & fire alarm check where I live every August and we only have 3 floors.
In Florida it is required or the building loses its Certificate of Occupancy which means everyone gets to move which tends to make people unhappy. Depending on the building most inspections can be done for anywhere between $150 and $400 depending on the building size and if a backflow tests are involved.
We make sure everything works.
Georgia has the same requirement but as far as I can tell no state has stronger enforcement than Florida.
Cool info nicet4! That building had over 500 units, right? And you better believe the rent was at least $1500/mo if not more.
$750,000/mo? Really? NO FRICKIN' EXCUSE. That's disgusting.
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