Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Everyone gets that, Cloudy. And the threat of prosecution has zero to do with why grandparents typically take such good care of their grandchildren. It's not even a factor.
Well in your case it would seem to be a factor. Since you seem very worried that you could be that grandparent, that this happens to. Most grandparents wouldn't even worry about the penalty. They would never think of allowing anything like this to happen to their grandchildren.
But you on the other hand seem more worried about the prospect of being prosecuted and going to prison, then you are of your grandchild dying due to your neglect. This prosecution is directed towards you. We as a society want people like you do be scared out of your wits by this prosecution. Because you have already demonstrated that you are more worried about going to prison then you are about the safety of your grandchild. Your grandchild falling out of a window and dying because of your recklessness, and you avoiding accountability, by claiming remorse, is not an option.
Status:
"I don't understand. But I don't care, so it works out."
(set 5 days ago)
35,620 posts, read 17,953,728 times
Reputation: 50641
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloudy Dayz
Well in your case it would seem to be a factor. Since you seem very worried that you could be that grandparent, that this happens to. Most grandparents wouldn't even worry about the penalty. They would never think of allowing anything like this to happen to their grandchildren.
But you on the other hand seem more worried about the prospect of being prosecuted and going to prison, then you are of your grandchild dying due to your neglect. This prosecution is directed towards you. We as a society want people like you do be scared out of your wits by this prosecution. Because you have already demonstrated that you are more worried about going to prison then you are about the safety of your grandchild. Your grandchild falling out of a window and dying because of your recklessness, and you avoiding accountability, by claiming remorse, is not an option.
What an odd thing to say. You and I, as I've said before, have such very different perspectives.
And in generations past the family did not hire two lawyers, appear on national TV, nor interview with national magazines all to divert blame from themselves.
Weren't they accusing the cruise line of negligence somehow?
Wasn't that the deal with the lawyers?
Last edited by GotHereQuickAsICould; 11-06-2019 at 10:46 AM..
Can't help but wonder if the family had left the lawyers out of it, if they had just chalked this up to a case of terrible judgment, an unfortunate accident as it were, if things would ever have gotten this far.
But they were determined that there be blame assigned and this is where it inevitably ended up.
First off, I have been on the sister ship. The windows do not push out so any theory that the child pushed on the glass and it gave way is wrong. They slide across so that people sitting near them can get a cross breeze. To say it happened in a child's play area is stretching it. It is in the area outside the buffet where often people would bring their food so as to eat. Lots of chairs and tables so you would have to intentionally move a chair to stand next to it. The child's pool is nearby as is the bigger pool. The grandfather claims he didn't know there wasn't glass (hard to believe since you would have a very clear view vs. looking through the tinted and spotty glass) and he placed the child on the ledge and she reached to bang on the "glass" and fell. Even if he thought there was glass there, he was negligent in not being absolutely sure by touching it but honestly I cannot see how he could have possibly thought there wasn't glass on that particular pane. I think he stood her up there holding her but not carefully enough and indeed she did reach forward and he lost his grip but I do not believe he could not have known (especially seeing as they had been on the cruise from almost a week) that there wasn't a window there.
This account seems to be what happened.
The grandfather may have been clueless about the open window, may may have overestimated his strength, may be just negligent in general about safety, but don't see how that makes him criminally liable.
Criminally negligent homicide. Is charged all the time. I guess I see this as almost a classic case.
An adult caregiver who owes a duty of care to an infant/toddler is confronted with something requiring no special skill or knowledge to understand and assess for danger. An open window 11 stories up on a cruise ship. It can be viewed as "unreasonable", and thus negligent, for such a caregiver to not notice the window was open. Now whether he actually knew or not is not really the issue. It's irrelevant because of the duty of care owed.
This is often how parents are charged in the death of children for a variety of reasons such as not seeking medical care, hot car deaths, accidents both in and outside the home. There are different types of fatal neglect cases: (1) failure to
provide necessities such as food, water, or medical care, (2) failure to supervise, and (3) failure to intervene (to protect a child from the abuse or neglect of another adult).
In this case there is a more direct and proximate cause, the GF himself caused the fatal accident by picking up a child who would otherwise be unable to access the open window and put her in it in such a way that she was able to fatally fall. I think the question/decision here will hinge on the assessment of the reasonableness of what he did. And, as I said, to me putting a child in an open window 11 stories up is unreasonable and thus negligent per se. This is not about intent or actual knowledge.
This is not some new legal concept and yes, these cases may more frequently end in less severe consequences because of the human trauma involved in the death of a child and the feeling the negligent party has already been more than sufficiently punished. I don't know how it will or would pay in court if the defense is it was the cruise line's fault. Again, to me, while this may just be normal human need to lay the blame elsewhere it also could serve to further the unreasonable aspect of the GF behavior. I don't see how it can be a winning argument that an adult cannot be charged with knowing whether a window is open or closed. There seems to be plenty of evidence that whether a particular window was open or closed was extremely obvious. It also appears there has never been a similar accident so there is little if any evidence that it was difficult or impossible to tell the window was open.
Well in your case it would seem to be a factor. Since you seem very worried that you could be that grandparent, that this happens to. Most grandparents wouldn't even worry about the penalty. They would never think of allowing anything like this to happen to their grandchildren.
But you on the other hand seem more worried about the prospect of being prosecuted and going to prison, then you are of your grandchild dying due to your neglect. This prosecution is directed towards you. We as a society want people like you do be scared out of your wits by this prosecution. Because you have already demonstrated that you are more worried about going to prison then you are about the safety of your grandchild. Your grandchild falling out of a window and dying because of your recklessness, and you avoiding accountability, by claiming remorse, is not an option.
Cloudy, you and I agree on most things in this case but this is one I have to protest. Clara may think differently than us but I think that is born from her greater faith in humanity than our jaded, hardened outlook.
Criminally negligent homicide. Is charged all the time. I guess I see this as almost a classic case.
An adult caregiver who owes a duty of care to an infant/toddler is confronted with something requiring no special skill or knowledge to understand and assess for danger. An open window 11 stories up on a cruise ship. It can be viewed as "unreasonable", and thus negligent, for such a caregiver to not notice the window was open. Now whether he actually knew or not is not really the issue. It's irrelevant because of the duty of care owed.
This is often how parents are charged in the death of children for a variety of reasons such as not seeking medical care, hot car deaths, accidents both in and outside the home. There are different types of fatal neglect cases: (1) failure to
provide necessities such as food, water, or medical care, (2) failure to supervise, and (3) failure to intervene (to protect a child from the abuse or neglect of another adult).
In this case there is a more direct and proximate cause, the GF himself caused the fatal accident by picking up a child who would otherwise be unable to access the open window and put her in it in such a way that she was able to fatally fall. I think the question/decision here will hinge on the assessment of the reasonableness of what he did. And, as I said, to me putting a child in an open window 11 stories up is unreasonable and thus negligent per se. This is not about intent or actual knowledge.
This is not some new legal concept and yes, these cases may more frequently end in less severe consequences because of the human trauma involved in the death of a child and the feeling the negligent party has already been more than sufficiently punished. I don't know how it will or would pay in court if the defense is it was the cruise line's fault. Again, to me, while this may just be normal human need to lay the blame elsewhere it also could serve to further the unreasonable aspect of the GF behavior. I don't see how it can be a winning argument that an adult cannot be charged with knowing whether a window is open or closed. There seems to be plenty of evidence that whether a particular window was open or closed was extremely obvious. It also appears there has never been a similar accident so there is little if any evidence that it was difficult or impossible to tell the window was open.
Thanks for the explanation.
It does indeed seem like a classic case of criminally negligence homicide.
Cloudy, you and I agree on most things in this case but this is one I have to protest. Clara may think differently than us but I think that is born from her greater faith in humanity than our jaded, hardened outlook.
First I don't like to see a a grandfather charged in a case like this, any more then anyone else does. It would be nice if it was not necessary to charge him. But the attitude of some here is the reason it is absolutely necessary that he be prosecuted. Too many people empathize with the grandfather and see nothing wrong with what he did. As a society we have to take a stand and say, no you do not have a right to endanger a child like that. If the threat of the child's death is not enough deterrent to stop you from doing it, then we will add a prison sentence for additional deterrent. And yes I think it will work. Some here are clearly more concerned about the possibility of the grandfather going to prison, then they are about the fact that a child is dead. This is the legal system working the way it's supposed to, in this case to protect children.
Status:
"I don't understand. But I don't care, so it works out."
(set 5 days ago)
35,620 posts, read 17,953,728 times
Reputation: 50641
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloudy Dayz
First I don't like to see a a grandfather charged in a case like this, any more then anyone else does. It would be nice if it was not necessary to charge him. But the attitude of some here is the reason it is absolutely necessary that he be prosecuted. Too many people empathize with the grandfather and see nothing wrong with what he did. As a society we have to take a stand and say, no you do not have a right to endanger a child like that. If the threat of the child's death is not enough deterrent to stop you from doing it, then we will add a prison sentence for additional deterrent. And yes I think it will work. Some here are clearly more concerned about the possibility of the grandfather going to prison, then they are about the fact that a child is dead. This is the legal system working the way it's supposed to, in this case to protect children.
So, because people on an internet forum empathize with the grandfather, he should be prosecuted?
That's not the way the legal system works.
Prosecutors don't take the pulse of public opinion from internet forums, and then decide to move forward with charges against the opinions of those who are defending the bereaved on internet message boards.
Do you even read what you write, before you post it, Cloudy?
Last edited by ClaraC; 11-06-2019 at 10:47 PM..
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
