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I think Life Without Parole is as significant a deterrent as the death penalty is for most people.
It likely is-but. The "but" is that once someone receives LWOP what's the next punishment of he kills a guard or another inmate? Another LWOP?
And let's face it, for most people who commit murder, or any crime really, they don't think that 1) they're going to get caught or 2) really even give thought to the consequences.
It likely is-but. The "but" is that once someone receives LWOP what's the next punishment of he kills a guard or another inmate? Another LWOP?
And let's face it, for most people who commit murder, or any crime really, they don't think that 1) they're going to get caught or 2) really even give thought to the consequences.
A very true and accurate statement. Most people who commit violent crimes rarely consider the consequences. Which goes towards my point that they may, in fact, suffer those executive function deficits.
(Parenthetically, I think most white-collar crimes are committed with some degree of consideration for consequences, but those never involve the DP and rarely LWOP).
If the DP is not a good deterrent (and it isn't) because those who perpetrate violent crimes don't consider the consequences, then what is its purpose? Revenge, and/or a practical purge of citizens who are deemed too unworthy to live?
I'm not necessarily making an argument against it. Recently I saw a news story about a man who drowned his own 17-month old baby daughter just to spite his wife, who had asked him for a divorce. He is going up against the DP at his trial right now; his wife does not want the DP for him, because, she says, it will take too long. She relishes the idea that he will get life, get sent to general population, where he will promptly be killed by other prisoners.
Do we dare speak for this woman's pain -- or lecture her about a correct attitude? She wants blood, and it's understandable.
I guess you haven't been paying much attention to what has happened in this country in the last twenty years. Groups like the Innocence Project have established that at least 18 innocent people have been wrongfully convicted of murder and put on death row. The reality is that the system we have is flawed. There are reasons why innocent people are falsely convicted. They have to do with the poor quality of a defense that someone without money gets, mistaken eyewitness identifications, and the willingness of white juries to put a person of color to death in a situation where evidence is questionable. The point is that it has happened--and continues to happen.
Serious question...do you think that there may be a perverse correlation between the likelihood of a wrongful conviction and the death sentence? IE, one is less likely to accept a plea if they're innocent.
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Originally Posted by jtab4994
Shocked? Not me. I remember in 1992 when Bill Clinton, in the midst of a Presidential campaign and not wanting to be tarred as a weenie liberal and wanting to change the subject from the Gennifer Flowers scandal, flew home to Arkansas to sign the death warrant of a "disabled" murderer (who also happened to be black).
In the Clinton case though, the guy only became "disabled" after a suicide attempt that occurred after his two murders.
For context, he shot two people, killing a third...then was on the lam for a couple days, then agreed to turn himself in to a police officer he knew, then shot THAT cop in the back killing him, THEN shot himself functionally lobotomizing himself.
All the same...the inability to effectively participate in one's own defense is (to me) far more concerning than their IQ.
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Originally Posted by Thulsa
If you put me in a room with a test and told me "If you do well on this test, we're going to kill you", then I'm not going to do well on that test. ... or any test after that one.
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Originally Posted by Roselvr
My question is if they even had his school records to look at, not that it matters but anyone can fail a test.
I don't think they make that decision in a vacuum...If your standardized test scores in school, grades, etc, indicated otherwise, they wouldn't bother with the test (I don't think.)
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Originally Posted by WRM20
If you have 10 Blacks and 10 Whites charged with capital crimes, more Blacks will be given the death penalty. It's disproportionate, partially due to systemic racism, and partially due to Whites generally having more money for better lawyers who can get them LWOP instead of a needle.
I've actually heard that it tracks much stronger with the victims ethnicity.
Do away with the death penalty- its rarely carried out, and innocent people have been killed. Anyone out there that thinks life in prison isnt so bad has never been there.i have, and a life sentence is a pretty bad punishment. Sure, many people deserve death for what they have done, but as it stands- it's too flawed.
I don't think it would have any effect at all, whether negative or positive.
So you are saying harsher penalties would have no effect? So basically, our murder rate is going to keep climbing and there is nothing we can really do about it?
So you are saying harsher penalties would have no effect? So basically, our murder rate is going to keep climbing and there is nothing we can really do about it?
I dont think being hard on crime has any bearing on criminal behavior.
No criminal stops to think how long he might be sentenced for, before he/she commits a crime.
So are you willing to make the death penalty illegal nationwide and then see what happens? Do you think that society will improve?
I don't think it will make any difference. People who commit capital murder are not thinking well when they commit the crime, and most likely don't care about the potential penalty.
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Originally Posted by Troyfan
I like life in prison better if it really is life.
But it usually means 5 - 10 years. So, vs. that, 18 false positives is an acceptable error rate. The damage caused by releasing murders after 5 - 10 year (vs. death in prison) far exceeds that from 18 wrong executions.
People charged with capital murder in Texas get either the death penalty or life without parole. So no, they don't get out after 5 years
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Originally Posted by msRB311
If someone kills someone unless it was self defense why should they be able to go on with life? I don't think they should ever be free again.
So, if you accidentally run over someone with your car, it should be life in prison? Think about your statement some more.
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Originally Posted by USNRET04
So you are saying harsher penalties would have no effect? So basically, our murder rate is going to keep climbing and there is nothing we can really do about it?
The murder rate goes up the murder rate goes down. Penalties do not seem to be part of the equation.
Our entire justice system was founded on the ideal "Better 100 guilty men go free than one innocent man be condemned."
Even if only one innocent man is put to death, it's not a small problem.
It's actually better that 10 guilty go free. Not 100. But the point is the same. Justice cannot be perfect.
A decision has to be made, implicitly or explicitly, on how many freed guilty we are willing to accept to prevent one innocent from punishment. We can only get to zero if none are punished. There are injustices no matter what the decision. Either more or fewer guilty will not be punished or fewer or more innocent will be.
If punishment is viewed as an end there is no reason for it except justice. But it is also a means. It prevents criminals from committing more crimes by confining or killing them. This is the practical value of punishment.
It only looks like capital punishment has no practical value because there is no capital punishment is any real sense. It would be like arguing, if flu vaccines were not administered until after flu season, that they have no effect. It would be a vacuously true conclusion.
A very true and accurate statement. Most people who commit violent crimes rarely consider the consequences. Which goes towards my point that they may, in fact, suffer those executive function deficits.
(Parenthetically, I think most white-collar crimes are committed with some degree of consideration for consequences, but those never involve the DP and rarely LWOP).
If the DP is not a good deterrent (and it isn't) because those who perpetrate violent crimes don't consider the consequences, then what is its purpose? Revenge, and/or a practical purge of citizens who are deemed too unworthy to live?
I'm not necessarily making an argument against it. Recently I saw a news story about a man who drowned his own 17-month old baby daughter just to spite his wife, who had asked him for a divorce. He is going up against the DP at his trial right now; his wife does not want the DP for him, because, she says, it will take too long. She relishes the idea that he will get life, get sent to general population, where he will promptly be killed by other prisoners.
Do we dare speak for this woman's pain -- or lecture her about a correct attitude? She wants blood, and it's understandable.
She is correct that his time in prison will be worse if he’s in the general population versus on death row. Death row inmates are not mixed in with the general population. In the general population he will certainly not have a good time as a baby killer.
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