Was I wrong??? (Georgetown, Princeton, Van: attorney, house, buy)

[racehorse]

Economics isn't a true business degree, but it says more about an individual's quantitative skills than a Women's Studies degree does.

[biafra4life]

Originally Posted by TurtleCreek80

I don't disagree that college CAN be a direct preparation for career, I'm just saying many times it isn't. I know advertising majors who work for the Richards Group but also in commercial real estate development. I know journalism majors working for magazines and some that are retail buyers. I know history majors who are JAG attorneys and some that are teachers. I even know someone who was a Spanish major working in private equity who is now working for a church.

Your major is not a life sentence. You just need a strategy- ie, a Women's studies major could intern with a Women's non-profit and end up in a PR job or a management job running at a non-profit.

The scenarios you painted out here are certainly possible, but I would say many of them are closer to unlikely than to possible. Take for instance the last situation you described, the women's studies major ending up in PR or management...if I was a betting man, I would put my money on that major being told that the shelter had no money to hire him in any capacity or at best hire him for extremely low wages.

I have some real life examples to draw from; in college, I had a group of close friends who were all working at the Boys and Girls Club in Fort Worth. All of them had Masters degrees in either counseling or social work, and two of them were working on doctorates in the same fields. How much were they making at the B&G? $26K a year. Now they all were drawn to the field because they loved "working with people" and had passion for the field, but the hopes and dreams of one day owning a house, raising a family, those dreams are now severely restricted. This is the reality of America that I know, and it sucks to say but humanities and other liberal arts degrees for the most part, dont lead to the middle class wages that people ultimately want.

[sherlockholmes2501]

Originally Posted by EDS_

There is a great, although old, economic study that concluded if the US paid every trial lawyer a $1,000,000 per year to go fishing or sit on the couch US GDP would improve by a directly marginal 3.75-4.25%. If I can find it - I'll post it at least the ending few pages.

One thing I've noticed is that every societal ill is blamed on evil trial lawyers. In my life, I have heard that they are the cause of diseases (so they can sue of over them), 9-11 (so they can sue over it) and the Civil War (so they could sue over it).

Routinely, court cases are completely made up or so distorted that they have such little basis in reality. Even newspapers repeat the urban myths in the "Stella Awards." Those "awards" have been shown to be completely made up.

One has to wonder why there is such a militant, concerted effort to spread lies about a certain group. It sure seems like someone is trying to influence public opinion -- and the main way they can do it is through a lie. So next time you go to court with a grievance, it will be like the little boy who cried wolf. The potential jurors will already be biased against you for even using one of those smarmy trial lawyers.

I'd love to see the article that says America's 60,000 trial lawyers are responsible for trillions to our GDP. Anybody with a calculator could figure out that is a fantasy of absolutely ridiculous proportions. And you don't need a finance/business or econ degree from Dartmouth or Yale to figure that one out.

[Macbeth2003]

Originally Posted by biafra4life

How much were they making at the B&G? $26K a year. Now they all were drawn to the field because they loved "working with people" and had passion for the field, but the hopes and dreams of one day owning a house, raising a family, those dreams are now severely restricted. This is the reality of America that I know, and it sucks to say but humanities and other liberal arts degrees for the most part, dont lead to the middle class wages that people ultimately want.

I think here you make the - common to us all - mistake of projecting you hopes and dreams onto others. Most people I know who choose to pursue low paying fields - either with or without a degree - do so because something about that field is extremely important to them, and conversely home ownership is not.

Realistically if two people making $26k a year end up together they can still hae a family. They won't have much money, but if they are the sort of people who pursued that path then money wasn't that important. I know lots of two artist families with kids who have followed that path. Heck I know several two artist families (and one one artist, one social worker family) who are the children of two artist families, so people do consciously choose that sort of life.
Nothing wrong with choosing to not be well off. It is still an economic choice. You trade making money for something you value more. There is also nothing wrong with making the more conventional choice. Neither one is intrinsically better, and as a society we need people who make both.

[TurtleCreek80]

Originally Posted by biafra4life

The scenarios you painted out here are certainly possible, but I would say many of them are closer to unlikely than to possible.

This is the reality of America that I know, and it sucks to say but humanities and other liberal arts degrees for the most part, dont lead to the middle class wages that people ultimately want.

This is the "reality of America" for the Fortune 100 CEO's (January 2011)-

Of 100 CEOs, I found a list reporting undergrad degrees of 80 of them. Of the 80, 17 (21%) have liberal arts degrees or something completely unrelated to their industry. That list is below. An additional 12 had Economics degrees. 16- 20%- had degrees that directly related to their industry (ie, Walt Disney's CEO majored in Television & Film, CVS's CEO majored in Pharmacy, Marathon Oil's majored in Geology, Dow Chemical's in Chemical Engineering, Wells Fargo's in Finance etc). Only 23 CEO's actually have a "business" undergrad degree- accounting, finance, marketing, general business, etc.

What is a common thread is the high caliber of schools most CEO's attended- 18 attended Ivy League schools and the vast majority attended a top 50 program like Duke, MIT, Stanford, University of Texas, University of North Carolina, Notre Dame, etc. Over 50% have MBAs, including many of the liberal arts majors, but remember that most MBA's go back after starting a career, not straight from undergrad.

Bank of America- Brian T Moynihan - History (Brown U)
JP Morgan Chase- James Dimon- Economics & Psychology (Tufts)
Citigroup- Vikram S Pandit - Electrical Engineering (Gannon)
Cardinal Health- George S Barrett- Music (Brown)
IBM- Samuel J Palmisano - History (Johns Hopkins)
Boeing- W. James McNerney Jr - American Studies (Yale)
Goldman Sachs- Lloyd C Blankfein - History (Harvard)
Lockheed Martin- Robert J Stevens- Psychology (Slippery Rock U)
Kraft Foods- Irene B Rosenfeld- Psychology (Cornell)
Aetna- Ronald A Williams- Psychology (Roosevelt U)
Caterpillar- James W Owens- Textiles (NC State U)
Sprint Nextel- Daniel R Hesse- Government & International Studies (Notre Dame)
Delta Air Lines- Richard H Anderson- Political Science (U Houston)
Merk- Richard T Clark- Liberal Studies (Washington & Jefferson U)
American Express- Kenneth I Chenault - History (Bowdoin)
Wal-Mart - Michael T Duke- Industrial Engineering (Georgia Tech)
Rite Aid- Mary F Sammons- French (Marylhurst U)

[hal2814]

I'm been thinking about this and right or wrong you have a chance to give some good advice now. If he feels he made a mistake and should've gotten a sociology degree he can still get one and not leave his AT&T position by taking online/evening courses. He can keep that AT&T job all the way up until he graduates and finds a job he really wants. He has the opportunity to follow his dreams and still do the practical thing for the time being. Yeah, it'll be hard but if it's worth that much to him, then the hard work will be worth it.

[ExcellentUserName]

Originally Posted by TurtleCreek80

This is the "reality of America" for the Fortune 100 CEO's (January 2011)-

Of 100 CEOs, I found a list reporting undergrad degrees of 80 of them. Of the 80, 17 (21%) have liberal arts degrees or something completely unrelated to their industry. That list is below. An additional 12 had Economics degrees. 16- 20%- had degrees that directly related to their industry (ie, Walt Disney's CEO majored in Television & Film, CVS's CEO majored in Pharmacy, Marathon Oil's majored in Geology, Dow Chemical's in Chemical Engineering, Wells Fargo's in Finance etc). Only 23 CEO's actually have a "business" undergrad degree- accounting, finance, marketing, general business, etc.

What is a common thread is the high caliber of schools most CEO's attended- 18 attended Ivy League schools and the vast majority attended a top 50 program like Duke, MIT, Stanford, University of Texas, University of North Carolina, Notre Dame, etc. Over 50% have MBAs, including many of the liberal arts majors, but remember that most MBA's go back after starting a career, not straight from undergrad.

Bank of America- Brian T Moynihan - History (Brown U)
JP Morgan Chase- James Dimon- Economics & Psychology (Tufts)
Citigroup- Vikram S Pandit - Electrical Engineering (Gannon)
Cardinal Health- George S Barrett- Music (Brown)
IBM- Samuel J Palmisano - History (Johns Hopkins)
Boeing- W. James McNerney Jr - American Studies (Yale)
Goldman Sachs- Lloyd C Blankfein - History (Harvard)
Lockheed Martin- Robert J Stevens- Psychology (Slippery Rock U)
Kraft Foods- Irene B Rosenfeld- Psychology (Cornell)
Aetna- Ronald A Williams- Psychology (Roosevelt U)
Caterpillar- James W Owens- Textiles (NC State U)
Sprint Nextel- Daniel R Hesse- Government & International Studies (Notre Dame)
Delta Air Lines- Richard H Anderson- Political Science (U Houston)
Merk- Richard T Clark- Liberal Studies (Washington & Jefferson U)
American Express- Kenneth I Chenault - History (Bowdoin)
Wal-Mart - Michael T Duke- Industrial Engineering (Georgia Tech)
Rite Aid- Mary F Sammons- French (Marylhurst U)

Don't you think the LEAST important statistic you can cite when discussing the job and income outlook for a given degree is what the 1-2 highest paid individuals with that degree make? A question like "What percent of people with X degree make 100K+ quickly after graduation?" is incalculably more relevant than "What degree to the top CEOs in the country have?"

[biafra4life]

Originally Posted by ExcellentUserName

Don't you think the LEAST important statistic you can cite when discussing the job and income outlook for a given degree is what the 1-2 highest paid individuals with that degree make? A question like "What percent of people with X degree make 100K+ quickly after graduation?" is incalculably more relevant than "What degree to the top CEOs in the country have?"

agree with this, something more along the lines of 'what's the average salary of each major after graduation, and then maybe 5 years and then 10 years after graduation would be interesting.

[getmeoutofhere]

Either pay for college for your kid or don't. Limiting it to only what you approve of is ridiculous.

[TurtleCreek80]

Originally Posted by ExcellentUserName

Don't you think the LEAST important statistic you can cite when discussing the job and income outlook for a given degree is what the 1-2 highest paid individuals with that degree make? A question like "What percent of people with X degree make 100K+ quickly after graduation?" is incalculably more relevant than "What degree to the top CEOs in the country have?"

No, I don't. Becoming a Fortune 100 CEO is as cut-throat as it comes. Don't you think there are thousands of Finance & Business grads clammoring for those jobs?? And yet- over 50% of them either have a liberal arts degree or something completely unrelated to their industry. I think that shows that people who are smart & savvy can major at whatever their heart contents and still find success - and wealth- in life.