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I do that kind of negotiating when I buy new cars. Decide beforehand which car I want- then scour multiple websites / forums and know what is the cheapest price being paid in the area. I then call multiple places and play them against each other. The salesperson is usually not expecting such a well researched customer, and will start the usual spiel. It may be my accent, brown skin or what comes across as a certain cultural diffidence, but he is at some point annoyed and genuinely surprised I am not falling for it. It doesn't help him that I have read the 10 page Edmunds article "Confessions of an undercover car salesman", but he would have no idea I am even capable of understanding such things- to him I am just a first-gen Indian customer with a bad accent and good credit.
In the end, I beat even my target of a good price. The salesperson did not get the cut he was hoping for, but closes the sale. If I was a 20/30s-something white guy who made that purchase, I would be gloating on various fora how I pulled that off and be commended for it. But since I am first gen Indian immigrant who had the gall to force that price, I am sure the salesman was complaining to his friends how hard it is to deal with these Indians. Yes, I get that - all of us do. We also get the hypocrisy underlying all that, since we are fully aware (more than you would know) of the high ethical standards salespeople generally follow when dealing with what they think are wet behind the ears clients. It is just that our inarticulateness - and the lack of use of culturally appropriate humor or other devices to force that price down - brings about these allegations of cheapness. Will have to live with that, as all those savings will over the years end up as a gift of a fully paid medical education to some kid
That said, I don't walk in to Whole Foods or Walmart and try to talk the price down. I refuse to believe most Indians do that.
You can keep that false idea of car salesmen if you want to, it must make you feel better. Car salesmen in this day and age know full well that all information about a car price, hold back, dealer incentives, etc, can easily be had on the internet. We know the vast majority of customers know this information.
The customer still thinks otherwise, think they are the only customer that has this information. The thing that gets me, and it happened not once, but twice just this last Saturday and back to back with customers of Indian decent.... They wanted invoice price, refused to pay for any of the extra accessories they wanted, refused to pay the standard Texas tax, title and license fees and offered a price a couple of thousand below that. That is the gall that I get and it does make me angry. I spent my full afternoon with these two customers and they refused to buy even at a break even deal. And this was me pulling up truecar.com, kbb.com, edmunds.com to show that neutral websites showed what the pricing was.
Their offers, had the dealership taken them, would have been losses for the dealership in the multiple THOUSANDS of dollars. My Saturday, in which I should make at least two sales was totally wasted.
Now I have sold hundreds of Asian customers in my 8 years of selling cars. Many are very gracious. We are a volume dealership, I rarely make a large single commission, I go for volume sales, I have no problem matching or beating any competitors price, do not mind selling a vehicle at true cost, my dealership will do it. The irritating thing on my end is that you can go directly to that price and the customer will still think it is a place to negotiate thousands more. That is why I have gotten a little less "giving" as it were and usually go back to full sticker price. A good deal is always perception and I have found that if you go straight to what is a super deal, the customer thinks they are leaving something on the table.
It is just that percentage who expect you to make a deal that truly does lose thousands for a dealership on a purchase and then treat you with disdain when you won't do it. It goes with the territory, I am gracious when dealing with this customer, but like to vent about it every once in a while and this forum allows me to do so.
You can keep that false idea of car salesmen if you want to, it must make you feel better. Car salesmen in this day and age know full well that all information about a car price, hold back, dealer incentives, etc, can easily be had on the internet. We know the vast majority of customers know this information.
The customer still thinks otherwise, think they are the only customer that has this information. The thing that gets me, and it happened not once, but twice just this last Saturday and back to back with customers of Indian decent.... They wanted invoice price, refused to pay for any of the extra accessories they wanted, refused to pay the standard Texas tax, title and license fees and offered a price a couple of thousand below that. That is the gall that I get and it does make me angry. I spent my full afternoon with these two customers and they refused to buy even at a break even deal. And this was me pulling up truecar.com, kbb.com, edmunds.com to show that neutral websites showed what the pricing was.
Their offers, had the dealership taken them, would have been losses for the dealership in the multiple THOUSANDS of dollars. My Saturday, in which I should make at least two sales was totally wasted.
Now I have sold hundreds of Asian customers in my 8 years of selling cars. Many are very gracious. We are a volume dealership, I rarely make a large single commission, I go for volume sales, I have no problem matching or beating any competitors price, do not mind selling a vehicle at true cost, my dealership will do it. The irritating thing on my end is that you can go directly to that price and the customer will still think it is a place to negotiate thousands more. That is why I have gotten a little less "giving" as it were and usually go back to full sticker price. A good deal is always perception and I have found that if you go straight to what is a super deal, the customer thinks they are leaving something on the table.
It is just that percentage who expect you to make a deal that truly does lose thousands for a dealership on a purchase and then treat you with disdain when you won't do it. It goes with the territory, I am gracious when dealing with this customer, but like to vent about it every once in a while and this forum allows me to do so.
Excerpt: Sitting across from Dave I saw that he had a wandering eye. I kept trying to figure out which eye to look at. Dave reviewed my application and frowned.
"You've never sold cars before. Is that right?"
"Right."
"Why do you want to work here?"
...
"I want to make a lot of money," I said.
The effect on Dave was amazing. He smiled and relaxed, as if I had said the password to enter an exclusive club. If this had been a cartoon, dollar signs would have appeared in his eyes accompanied by a loud "Cha-ching!" (end excerpt)
You may be an exception, but I have never seen a car salesman (talking to say, 5 salesmen per each of 2 new cars we have bought over the last 5 years) who has started at anywhere close to the price they finally sold me the car for. And I have offered and bought for at or below the official invoice price, and I doubt the dealership was selling it to me for a loss.
That said I have never refused to pay the official taxes / fees - seriously who does that? Also, I would not want the dealership to take a loss. I would only take them to the point where they will give me the best price, with the assumption that they will not sell to me if they had to do it on a loss.
"A good deal is always perception" - you may want me to believe that but I do not agree. If you have the data, there is such a thing as a good deal.
Excerpt: Sitting across from Dave I saw that he had a wandering eye. I kept trying to figure out which eye to look at. Dave reviewed my application and frowned.
"You've never sold cars before. Is that right?"
"Right."
"Why do you want to work here?"
...
"I want to make a lot of money," I said.
The effect on Dave was amazing. He smiled and relaxed, as if I had said the password to enter an exclusive club. If this had been a cartoon, dollar signs would have appeared in his eyes accompanied by a loud "Cha-ching!" (end excerpt)
You may be an exception, but I have never seen a car salesman (talking to say, 5 salesmen per each of 2 new cars we have bought over the last 5 years) who has started at anywhere close to the price they finally sold me the car for. And I have offered and bought for at or below the official invoice price, and I doubt the dealership was selling it to me for a loss.
That said I have never refused to pay the official taxes / fees - seriously who does that? Also, I would not want the dealership to take a loss. I would only take them to the point where they will give me the best price, with the assumption that they will not sell to me if they had to do it on a loss.
"A good deal is always perception" - you may want me to believe that but I do not agree. If you have the data, there is such a thing as a good deal.
Of course you can buy below invoice, especially when there are manufacturer has incentives on a certain vehicle. Some manufactureres call it a rebate, some call it dealer incentive and is then passed on to the customer. That information is very available at multiple websites.
There are times when a dealership will sell a specific car at a loss, has been on the lot too long, is a demo, maybe they are trying to reach a volume level and will take a deal to get there, there are many, many factors on where one particular deal lands. Sometimes they are making it back up on the trade in, sometimes they are making it up on the financing side, there are many factors on the bottom line of where a car deal makes sense to a dealership to finally land.
I have seen my management come to sales meetings and say that overall gross is down and we can't take deals like we have taken, we need to work harder to get gross up. There are as many times when it swings the other way, volume is down, we have to move more cars, call any customer we missed a deal within $1,000 and bring them back in. There is no fixed number where a deal makes sense at any one time. I am not the one that makes this decision. Many, many factors change month to month, incentives from the manufacturer, rates from the manufacturer, trade in values due to fluctuating markets, etc, etc.
Again, I don't mind selling a car at cost or even below, we are a volume dealership. I get bonuses for hitting a high volume. I will take mini commissions all day long to hit my volume. But when people are angry with you for not taking a deal THOUSANDS below cost when you pull up data on the web that substantiates what I am showing them, that is a huge frustration. I would hope some of you would understand that.
But no, salesman are scum and people think they know your business better than you.
It is just that percentage who expect you to make a deal that truly does lose thousands for a dealership on a purchase and then treat you with disdain when you won't do it. It goes with the territory, I am gracious when dealing with this customer, but like to vent about it every once in a while and this forum allows me to do so.
Great post.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowyy
Its good that you are just a salesman and have no say in business decisions ... chapter 11 is not a fun read for any dealership.
Actually, its a good thing you have no say. You cannot sell below your costs for very long and stay in business. And you cannot provide good customer service by having thin margins. And you cannot retain stellar people by not paying them well or not providing a good place to work - which require healthy margins.
The customer is not always right. In many cases, they are horribly wrong. Just go look at the trolls on yelp or other sites. Once I know someone is a troll, they go in the little black book that says "stay away!"
What saintmarks did here was educate the customer. Another term, is "put their pants on for them" and this education is expensive for everyone. It is clear that he was gracious. Hopefully, they will come back and do the deal.
There are times when a dealership will sell a specific car at a loss, has been on the lot too long, is a demo, maybe they are trying to reach a volume level and will take a deal to get there, there are many, many factors on where one particular deal lands. Sometimes they are making it back up on the trade in, sometimes they are making it up on the financing side, there are many factors on the bottom line of where a car deal makes sense to a dealership to finally land.
I have seen my management come to sales meetings and say that overall gross is down and we can't take deals like we have taken, we need to work harder to get gross up. There are as many times when it swings the other way, volume is down, we have to move more cars, call any customer we missed a deal within $1,000 and bring them back in. There is no fixed number where a deal makes sense at any one time. I am not the one that makes this decision. Many, many factors change month to month, incentives from the manufacturer, rates from the manufacturer, trade in values due to fluctuating markets, etc, etc.
Well then, your clients were trying to leverage all the above possibilities in a perfectly legal way. The deal did not work out for both of you. You cannot call them cheap and propagate stereotypes just because you could not complete a sale and wasted time with them. Since they did not buy, they wasted their Saturday in there too. Also, I am still not completely sold on them not willing to pay standard Texas taxes or fees. Indians may drive a hard bargain on the price, but they are not stupid to require something like that.
Well then, your clients were trying to leverage all the above possibilities in a perfectly legal way. The deal did not work out for both of you. You cannot call them cheap and propagate stereotypes just because you could not complete a sale and wasted time with them. Since they did not buy, they wasted their Saturday in there too. Also, I am still not completely sold on them not willing to pay standard Texas taxes or fees. Indians may drive a hard bargain on the price, but they are not stupid to require something like that.
I originally responded to why there is a stereotype of 'cheap' labelled to Indian customers and it is because of the reasons I stated. I try my best to erase the stereotype every single time I work with a customer.
But when a customer offers you a price THOUSANDS below invoice on a vehicle with no incentives, no rebates, and you point out that even If I did sell at invoice and the sales taxes alone are 6.25%, what else am I supposed to summize? These were, in the term already mentioned by someone of Indian decent, FOBs, just arrived to work in the IT field, already have financing available thru the company. Perhaps they do not understand that sales tax and vehicle registration fees are standard, do not stay at the dealership and cannot be negotiated. I tried my best to explain this as curteously as possible, but they continued to offer $32k for a vehicle that drive out was over $40k full list price. We don't have that kind of mark-up, not even close.
Well then, your clients were trying to leverage all the above possibilities in a perfectly legal way. The deal did not work out for both of you. You cannot call them cheap and propagate stereotypes just because you could not complete a sale and wasted time with them. Since they did not buy, they wasted their Saturday in there too. Also, I am still not completely sold on them not willing to pay standard Texas taxes or fees. Indians may drive a hard bargain on the price, but they are not stupid to require something like that.
Im not 100%. Something I find very common among the Indian community is that someone hears from a friends that they can do something completely unbelievable (like not paying taxes on a car), and then they try to secure the same thing by telling the sales person that someone they knew got that deal. My wifes good friends father has been trying to do that with a house. He had a friends who bought a house in Valley Ranch five years ago at certain price, and he is trying to use that as leverage for the house he is trying to buy in a much more expensive neighborhood (Plano). I find the whole "my friend got this, so I can get this even though the circumstance are different" to be rampant in the Indian/South Asian community. Another thing I find is that many will try to plead sales people out of their cut of the sale.
I dont say that to be racist, I live in Russell Creek for crying out loud. Almost all of my friends and neighbors are Indian. I say the above because I have become increadibly familiar with the cultural nuances of the Indian community. I didnt know many Indians before moving to Dallas so I would never have associated it with them before.
As an added disclaimer, Im not trying to call the Indian community at large cheap. I have many Indian friends who are and many who are not. They have been wonderful neighbors and great friends to me as well. The difference is that I have yet to come into contact with another culture who tries the tactic above nearly as much. For the record, its not so much Indians who have been here for a long time as much as the ones that are new to the area.
Im not 100%. Something I find very common among the Indian community is that someone hears from a friends that they can do something completely unbelievable (like not paying taxes on a car), and then they try to secure the same thing by telling the sales person that someone they knew got that deal. My wifes good friends father has been trying to do that with a house. He had a friends who bought a house in Valley Ranch five years ago at certain price, and he is trying to use that as leverage for the house he is trying to buy in a much more expensive neighborhood (Plano). I find the whole "my friend got this, so I can get this even though the circumstance are different" to be rampant in the Indian/South Asian community. Another thing I find is that many will try to plead sales people out of their cut of the sale.
I honestly do not understand this. How can you get out of paying auto taxes? Where and who do you bargain about this with - maybe I am missing out on some incredible opportunities here.
If that first instance of somebody not paying auto taxes did happen, then I would believe others looking into that possibility. But how does that first instance happen? Are you saying that many Indians believe in such nonexistent things?
If it were actually possible, trying to 'optimize' on taxes is certainly not an Indian only trait - Mitt Romney as far as I know is not Indian.
I originally responded to why there is a stereotype of 'cheap' labelled to Indian customers and it is because of the reasons I stated. I try my best to erase the stereotype every single time I work with a customer.
But when a customer offers you a price THOUSANDS below invoice on a vehicle with no incentives, no rebates, and you point out that even If I did sell at invoice and the sales taxes alone are 6.25%, what else am I supposed to summize? These were, in the term already mentioned by someone of Indian decent, FOBs, just arrived to work in the IT field, already have financing available thru the company. Perhaps they do not understand that sales tax and vehicle registration fees are standard, do not stay at the dealership and cannot be negotiated. I tried my best to explain this as curteously as possible, but they continued to offer $32k for a vehicle that drive out was over $40k full list price. We don't have that kind of mark-up, not even close.
Maybe you ran into somebody really dense, who happened to be Indian. I know Indians from the inside, and I sure do not anyone who will not pay standard legally required taxes. They will look for great deals yes, but will not try to do something that will land them in jail. Even in India you cannot walk out with a 40k car by paying only 32k and without taxes - so why would they want to try something that stupid in a different country on something like a nonimmigrant visa, with all its attendant legal issues?
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