British Mom moving to HP/UP/PH or Lakewood?? Help! (Dallas: neighborhoods, top school)

[HockDad]

[

No doubt there are other good reasons to go to Hockaday. I'm not sure they're worth hundreds of thousands of dollars when you can get the same benefits for free elsewhere, but it's not my money. And I'm sure by the time parents realize that little Suzy isn't the brightest star in the bunch and is headed for Baylor at best they have a lot of other social reasons for keeping her there (and no doubt frantically hiring tutors).[/quote]

You have referenced in several recent posts the money that it costs to go to private schools. I thought we were comparing the merits of the schools, and most importantly, the academic environment of the schools. I don't know why you seem so focused on the money aspect of the schools. St Marks and Hockaday have an all time high wait list and the standards for admission continue to rise. Thus, I think we can assume that the financial aspect of the school is not a large factor for these families, and certainly not a deciding factor. For most of the families I know the money is a sacrifice, but hardly a burden. If it is a burden, these schools have financial aid for 18 percent of the students.

What we have not discussed is why the families in Dallas that could send their kids to any school in the country (hicks, Perot, crows, cubans, fords, bush) send their kids to these two schools. Why not send the kid to ww? A

My wife and I have seen it from both sides. We did the public school route and both of us did very well, but we also see the advantages of sending your kids to elite private schools. In fact, for us, it is an easy decision. The simple question for us is what is the best place for our three kids? We certainly don't weigh that little Johnny might only be in the top half of the class and go to Baylor, so let's pull him out and send him to hillcrest.

Alternatively, in my youngest daughters class, there are almost 40 doctors and lawyers out of 96 parents. A vast majority of the parents have advanced degrees. Why do these families that Hockaday is the best choice? Several families moved from plano to be closer to the school.

[HockDad]

Originally Posted by anonperson

Just think how good the public schools would be in the Park Cities and Preston Hollow if the parents did not send their kids to private school! Such a shame....

Great point. Also think how good the colleges would be if we did not strive to send our kids to private school. But alas, people tend to believe that for the most part, elite private colleges and elite private high schools provide a better education than public schools.

[Ramona72]

Originally Posted by HockDad

You have referenced in several recent posts the money that it costs to go to private schools. I thought we were comparing the merits of the schools, and most importantly, the academic environment of the schools. I don't know why you seem so focused on the money aspect of the schools. St Marks and Hockaday have an all time high wait list and the standards for admission continue to rise. Thus, I think we can assume that the financial aspect of the school is not a large factor for these families, and certainly not a deciding factor. For most of the families I know the money is a sacrifice, but hardly a burden. If it is a burden, these schools have financial aid for 18 percent of the students.

What we have not discussed is why the families in Dallas that could send their kids to any school in the country (hicks, Perot, crows, cubans, fords, bush) send their kids to these two schools. Why not send the kid to ww? A

My wife and I have seen it from both sides. We did the public school route and both of us did very well, but we also see the advantages of sending your kids to elite private schools. In fact, for us, it is an easy decision. The simple question for us is what is the best place for our three kids? We certainly don't weigh that little Johnny might only be in the top half of the class and go to Baylor, so let's pull him out and send him to hillcrest.

Alternatively, in my youngest daughters class, there are almost 40 doctors and lawyers out of 96 parents. A vast majority of the parents have advanced degrees. Why do these families that Hockaday is the best choice? Several families moved from plano to be closer to the school.

Actually, I'm sure Lakewooder will chime in on this but many of the old Dallas money elite did go to Woodrow and other Dallas publics and even as recently as my childhood Hillcrest was the choice of the Preston Hollow professional class. Why do the Cubans and Perots choose privates? For the same reason that the NYC big money types choose Dalton and Spence instead of Stuyvesant and Bronx Science -- social milieu, social pressure, conformity, etc. And the aspiring professional class follows them, particularly if the local publics are not exceptional.

As I've said, it's not my money and if you have dollar bills to burn, go for it. I do think that for the average upper-middle-class professional types, $75K a year in private school tuition represents a not-insignificant sacrifice and spending that to educate a lackluster student would not be my choice. I do recognize that there can be a sweet-spot where the child is promising enough and the tuition not problematic enough that the decision makes sense. But I also think in general people are afraid of the unknown and of being different and most affluent Preston Hollow types would no more choose Hillcrest when everyone else on their block is at Hockaday than they'd drive up in a 20-year-old car, even if their bright kid can come out of it with the same college choice. People like to do what their neighbors so.

[anonperson]

Originally Posted by HockDad

Great point. Also think how good the colleges would be if we did not strive to send our kids to private school. But alas, people tend to believe that for the most part, elite private colleges and elite private high schools provide a better education than public schools.

If I'm going to send my kids to private school, it's going to be somewhere seriously worth it like Exeter or Andover.

[bencronin04]

Originally Posted by anonperson

If I'm going to send my kids to private school, it's going to be somewhere seriously worth it like Exeter or Andover.

What makes Exeter or Andover better then St. Makrs/Hockaday?

St. Marks SAT average score is right at where Exeter is according to the info packet we just received. It's actually a tad higher at St. Marks. 2130 vs. 2122

[TurtleCreek80]

Originally Posted by anonperson

Just think how good the public schools would be in the Park Cities and Preston Hollow if the parents did not send their kids to private school! Such a shame....

Excuse me?! Your post is trying to imply that BOTH HPISD and Hillcrest both need a little help from their private school residents. C'mon!

Sure, HPHS would likely be a 3.5% NMSF high school and would maybe get another 20 point SAT lift from the private school contingency. That would keep HP's SAT the #1 score in the area, just pull another 20 points away from Plano West. They'd probably jump over Coppell in the NMSF rankings. Nice to have, but wouldn't really alter the already competitive and high achieving nature of the school.

Hillcrest, on the other hand, would be a completely different school with its private school residents. Would probably be vying for a top 1-5 ranking in DFW area, SAT average would rise by several hundred points, NMSF would go from 0% of class to 3-5% range, percent of economically disadvantages kids would plummet to 10% or fewer. BUT / that all assumes the staff & administration of a DISD comprehensive school could actually run a HP-like enclave school and that the private school kids wouldn't be taking a good chunk of DISD magnet spots from the students who are already there. I suspect Hillcrest (in its current state) would still lose a ton of neighborhood kids to the magnet schools and while it probably wouldn't impact SEM and TAG since those kids are already super high- achieving, the balance of magnet schools would probably see major bumps in SAT's, NMSF, etc to avoid the neighborhood high school.

Wouldn't help Woodrow much since a tiny percentage of the Lakewood kids are enrolled in top privates.

[TurtleCreek80]

Originally Posted by anonperson

If I'm going to send my kids to private school, it's going to be somewhere seriously worth it like Exeter or Andover.

You're seriously underestimating how St Mark's and Hockaday rank in the US private schools if you think Andover and Exeter are a tier or two above.

Edit: bencronin4 beat me to it! Thanks for pulling the SAT's.

[Considering Coming Back]

Originally Posted by TurtleCreek80

Excuse me?! Your post is trying to imply that BOTH HPISD and Hillcrest both need a little help from their private school residents. C'mon!

Sure, HPHS would likely be a 3.5% NMSF high school and would maybe get another 20 point SAT lift from the private school contingency. That would keep HP's SAT the #1 score in the area, just pull another 20 points away from Plano West. They'd probably jump over Coppell in the NMSF rankings. Nice to have, but wouldn't really alter the already competitive and high achieving nature of the school.

Hillcrest, on the other hand, would be a completely different school with its private school residents. Would probably be vying for a top 1-5 ranking in DFW area, SAT average would rise by several hundred points, NMSF would go from 0% of class to 3-5% range, percent of economically disadvantages kids would plummet to 10% or fewer. BUT / that all assumes the staff & administration of a DISD comprehensive school could actually run a HP-like enclave school and that the private school kids wouldn't be taking a good chunk of DISD magnet spots from the students who are already there. I suspect Hillcrest (in its current state) would still lose a ton of neighborhood kids to the magnet schools and while it probably wouldn't impact SEM and TAG since those kids are already super high- achieving, the balance of magnet schools would probably see major bumps in SAT's, NMSF, etc to avoid the neighborhood high school.

Wouldn't help Woodrow much since a tiny percentage of the Lakewood kids are enrolled in top privates.

I agree with what you are saying here. But I'll point out that it implies that schools have very little to do with the success of the students. It's all about the SES factors that the student brings with them (and that are outside their control). If the top quintile sticks together their local school will be great, regardless of who the other students are. Which is what this discussion really is-- it's practicing the talking points for convincing the wealthy parents of choice to stay in Lakewood schools after 3rd grade.

Also, and I doubt you'd have reason to know this so I'm not knocking you, but Hillcrest has great teachers. Especially in math. DISD runs a program where the best teachers in each subject essentially teach the top 1% of the districts students. When I was at BA our biology teacher was this person, the Hillcrest math guy was this person, and the other teachers were at Woodrow and White. The infrastructure is at place at White/Hillcrest/Woodrow, they just need more of the students.

[anonperson]

Originally Posted by TurtleCreek80

You're seriously underestimating how St Mark's and Hockaday rank in the US private schools if you think Andover and Exeter are a tier or two above.

Show me any ranking that puts these two Dallas privates ahead of top boarding schools. You can't do it. Andover and Exeter and several others put way more kids in the Ivies. If that is what matters to you, then St. Marks and Hockaday are not the best available.

[Ramona72]

Originally Posted by anonperson

Show me any ranking that puts these two Dallas privates ahead of top boarding schools. You can't do it. Andover and Exeter and several others put way more kids in the Ivies. If that is what matters to you, then St. Marks and Hockaday are not the best available.

I'm not sure where you find rankings but Forbes has a list of top 20 prep schools:
1. Trinity (NY)
2. Horace Mann (NY)
3. Andover (MA)
4. Brearley (NY)
5. Roxbury Latin (MA)
6. Exeter (MA)
7. Collegiate (NY)
8. St. Paul's (NH)
9. Spence (NY)
10. Winsor (MA)
11. Chapin (NY)
12. Harvard-Westlake (CA)
13. Dalton (NY)
14. Lawrenceville (NJ)
15. Groton (MA)
16. Milton (MA)
17. College Prep (CA)
18. Noble and Greenough (MA)
19. Hopkins (CT)
20. Deerfield (MA)

St. Marks and Hockaday are great here in flyover country, but they're not playing with the big boys and girls on the east coast.