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Plenty of children grow up in major cities all over the world. And not everything in your life has to be about 'the children' even if you have a few. There's not much more to it than that.
I agree that there is more to life than children and city mice aren't worse off than country mice but this is more like a few times a month entertainment for parents but more daily hassle and stress with longer commutes, cramped quarters, schooling issues etc for them even if it was all good for children. I'm not trying to sway them away but trying to understand the pros and cons of such a decision.
Plenty of children grow up in major cities all over the world. And not everything in your life has to be about 'the children' even if you have a few. There's not much more to it than that.
I'm sure my parents were bored to death living in the suburbs so I could go to an excellent school district and live in a safe environment.
I can understand having kids and still wanting to live in an urban, walkable area. I live in a neighborhood with one of the highest population densities per sq mile in the entire US, and we have a daughter and like it here. But Dallas (where we used to live) is different in that sure, you can live downtown, but it's pretty dead on weekends.........
This thread is really making me consider downtown fort worth over all areas. I want my sundance square in an urban area of Dallas. That just doesn't seem feasible. We want to be closer to family/friends in Dallas. There's a lot of family! I also have more networking opportunities in Dallas with an upcoming tech startup that I'll be working on. The demographics of Dallas include more of my potential target audience. Dallas city council should really call over to Fort Worth and figure out why espn has called downtown fort worth home for every huge event hosted in Arlington for the past three years and why Fort Worth has the best downtown in Texas (it's either ftw or austin hands down)
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Great suggestion! Hopefully OP will take your advice and test drive his urban dream.
Very good suggestion. I just might do that.
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I agree that there is more to life than children and city mice aren't worse off than country mice but this is more like a few times a month entertainment for parents but more daily hassle and stress with longer commutes, cramped quarters, schooling issues etc for them even if it was all good for children. I'm not trying to sway them away but trying to understand the pros and cons of such a decision.
I'll attempt to appease your critique:
First and foremost, the best environment to raise children is in a loving and supportive home no matter where you live. I'd choose that environment in podunk county, North Dakota than a dysfunctional one in NYC/Boston/San Fran. I have lived in both urban and suburbs as a child. I loved growing up in the city and I hated it when we moved to the suburbs. It hasn't changed as an adult. I enjoy the city more than the suburbs. I believe the pros of the burbs and cons of the city are:
1. More room to roam (outside and inside) & 2. Perception of schools
Now the pros of the city are:
1. Simplicity is more possible (less room means less furniture). Less gas guzzlers, etc.
2. The immediate family is closer physically. (harder for kids to isolate themselves)
3. apt/condo cleaning and care is easier and less time consuming (don't spend your free time on yard/house work chores)
4. Greater diversity of interest and skills leads to less peer pressure which cancels a need to fit into a mold
5. cultural enrichment activities within walking distance.
6. teens don't necessarily need a car which prevents them from riding with other reckless teen drivers
7. City kids are more resourceful
8. Kids are able to process the sinfulness of the world which is more visible within the city and not shielded away from children until just a couple of years before leaving home for the world.
9. Greater diversity of people. Kids will be more accepting of cultural differences and won't be as uncomfortable as an adult when they have to interact with someone who is different. This exposure will decrease irrational fears of those who are different.
10. More social interaction in the city than the burbs. Growing up in an adult filled environment gives kids a strong head start in vocabulary and conceptual skills. They are more quick witted and have "street smarts."
11. They develop better social skills. Developing an ability to "read" people and judge their trustworthiness.
12. Children growing up in an urban area like downtown makes it easier for them to understand how society works. Societal needs, businesses, occupations and how everything is interdependent. It broadens their horizons when choosing their own path.
13. Increase networking skills with outcomes such as applying/interviewing for jobs and finding success in life.
14. Contact with a diverse group of ppl such as elders, disabled, poor, etc makes a child more aware of human infirmity and stimulates their compassion and sense of ethical responsibility toward those who are truly in need of help.
15. Close walk to many things (park, cultural arts, places to eat, library, etc)
16. Cost (there is a trade off here. Yes it may cost more but what will cost less? Utility bills, gas, vehicle tax.
17. Suburb ppl: "Want to go to xyz downtown for dinner? Sure. Okay, it'll take us some time to get through traffic to get there and where will we park?" Urban people: "Want to go to xyz for dinner?" Sure. Okay, I'll meet you downstairs in 10 minutes. Okay, see you then."
And the biggest flaw to the burbs is "car culture." It changes the flow of everyday life. Yes, this is DFW and we will always have cars but here's an example. Lets say I'm going to take the family out and we are going to spend some time in south lake town square. We will get in the car and drive there with "blinders on." And we will do exactly that, drive to south lake town square. There's no opportunity for unexpected delight. Being able to walk places changes the course of your day. You may discover things along the way. Live in uptown and bike to downtown and you may discover some kind of festival, 5k, or other festivity occurring along your route that you really enjoy. That just doesn't happen in car culture suburbia.
So yes, suburbs have the perception of better schools and I say perception because that's based on test scores and passing grades. I would like to see a clever way to measure the success of kids with involved parents in urban schools. That would be a more accurate way to evaluate the urban school. Suburban schools have more involved parents without a doubt. Teachers and schools can only do so much. They can't raise kids for you and most suburban families are aware of that. A greater percentage of parents in the burbs take parenting more seriously.
The burbs have more room inside the house and more room outside to play in the yard. I'll give it that. But that room may cause distance and more isolation. You can mention crime but crime is everywhere. Drugs are everywhere. There's definitely more property crime in the suburbs. As far as violent crime, most victims of violent crimes know their attacker. Where is someone that preys on children more likely to go: the suburbs or the city. I'm sure you can snatch a kid, assault them, etc in a quiet time of day in the burbs than a city full of witnesses. Now, I wouldn't suggest a dark alley in the city for anyone. You can mention "safe environment" and "better schools" all you want but that opinion is just that. There's not enough pros vs cons of the suburbs to make it the default best choice for parents with children.
Just my opinion, to each his own
Last edited by IamLegend2000; 01-23-2015 at 08:26 PM..
Suggestion. Get a hotel for a couple days in DT. Maybe a week. Go out at all hours. See if u can deal. If so - go for it. If not, money well spent.
This is really good advise. The best way to see if something is right for you is to experience it for yourself. There are also corporate leasing options in Uptown. You can try out a furnished apartment in Uptown for about $150 a day.
I agree with this part completely. Some of your arguments make sense but others not so much. I suppose when we want to convince ourselves about something then it's not that difficult to do. I'm not just saying it for you but for us suburbia lovers as well. I hope things work out as well as you expect them to be.
Taking away housing space, good schools, time with parents and kid friendly neighborhood from the kids, for occasional trips to museums and to improve social life of parents on weekends? Doesn't make much sense to me. Please enlighten me!
Agree. No way in hell I would let my daughter grow up in Downtown or Uptown, but then I grew up on 40 acres with large gardens, ATVs, dirt bikes, shooting guns, etc. While we are not going to be able to replicate that experience, I couldn't imagine her or myself growing up in the concrete jungle.
I loved growing up in the city and I hated it when we moved to the suburbs. It hasn't changed as an adult. I enjoy the city more than the suburbs.
Now the pros of the city are:
6. teens don't necessarily need a car which prevents them from riding with other reckless teen drivers
7. City kids are more resourceful
9. Greater diversity of people. Kids will be more accepting of cultural differences and won't be as uncomfortable as an adult when they have to interact with someone who is different. This exposure will decrease irrational fears of those who are different.
10. More social interaction in the city than the burbs. Growing up in an adult filled environment gives kids a strong head start in vocabulary and conceptual skills. They are more quick witted and have "street smarts."
11. They develop better social skills. Developing an ability to "read" people and judge their trustworthiness.
12. Children growing up in an urban area like downtown makes it easier for them to understand how society works. Societal needs, businesses, occupations and how everything is interdependent. It broadens their horizons when choosing their own path.
13. Increase networking skills with outcomes such as applying/interviewing for jobs and finding success in life.
14. Contact with a diverse group of ppl such as elders, disabled, poor, etc makes a child more aware of human infirmity and stimulates their compassion and sense of ethical responsibility toward those who are truly in need
Just my opinion, to each his own
I suspect you grew up in NYC, Philly, or Boston where there is a critical mass of families living in a dense urban area. I think this has given you a very "romanticized" view of urban living in the DFW area. I lived in Manhattan for 5 years and know exactly the "city kids" of which you speak - savvy, independent, well-spoken, curious city explorers, etc. I've lived in central Dallas (Park Cities, Uptown/Turtle Creek, East Dallas, Preston Hollow) for all but my 5 years in NYC and can tell you the vision you have for raising city kids doesn't exist in uptown/downtown Dallas. 99.8% of people with kids move out of uptown/downtown by the time their oldest is kindergarten age.
*YOU* may be able to raise your kids to meet a lot of the above city benefits, but a few things to ponder:
1. They WILL be driving all over town to meet up with their friends. I'm going to assume- best-case scenario- your kids are enrolled in DISD magnets, not at North Dallas High (the neighborhood school). Their school friends are going to live ALL OVER Dallas (as far north as almost George Bush turnpike, as far south as I-20). That is a HUGE area to cover in a car and will ensure your teens are highway driving far more than kids who live in Lakewood or TCU area of FW and attend their neighborhood high school.
2. They WILL be lonely. You say being near family is great and I agree, but not having any kids living close by is not fun. And more work for mom & dad - who work 15-30 miles away- to arrange any sort of play dates with classmates who live further away. When you do your downtown/uptown staycation, take note of how many 10-18 year olds are walking around the neighborhood alone (without mom. & dad). That's a pretty good way to judge who may live nearby vs who drove in from another neighborhood to go to Klyde Warren Park. I doubt you will count more than one hand's worth.
3. You're being unbelievably naive about urban neighborhood schools. Take Milam Elementary, the neighborhood K-5 school for uptown/downtown. Yes, you are 100% correct that involved parents make a huge difference, but do you see what an uphill battle you're climbing if in your kid's 3rd grade class, YOU are the only involved parent out of 25? Imagine school for your child when he is surrounded by kids who don't care because their parents have told them school is stupid. Imagine school for your child when the older kids start to prey on the 4-5th graders to join this gang or that one. Or to start getting into the drug trade as a spotter or a runner. Imagine school for your child when half of his 3rd grade class hasn't learned to read yet. How much attention do you think your kid, who pays attention, is polite, and does his homework is going to get in a highly disrupted urban school where a quarter of the kids don't know where they'll sleep that night??? Huh ??? I don't need my kids to be in a perfect suburban environment, but I always want to be sure there are more involved parents than uninvolved ones-> that's the magic formula for the fsmilies who care to pull the other kids UP in life, not for the 1 involved family surrounded by 25 who don't care to have their kid pulled DOWN.
Please trust the people on this board who have more knowledge of Dallas than you, picking Lakewood or NOC will give your kids plenty of chances to become independent, savvy, etc. kids in those areas- as well as really any kids living in HPISD, north Dallas privates, or Lake Highland schools, definitely explore the city once in high school. I grew up in the Park Cities, but we were always hanging out in Deep Ellum/ Lower Greenville/ concerts at Fair Park or an old venue in Oak Cliff, or going to the downtown library for research, or doing volunteer work in urban West Dallas. I wasn't sheltered and knew my way around the city like the back of my hand by the time I graduated. I gained plenty of street smarts and could hold my own in an adult conversation from a young age. You can raise kids like this in ANY of the neighborhoods that loop around downtown that actually have families with kids living there. Young kids in Lakewood and the Park Cities play freely in their neighborhoods, not inside or in gated backyards like most Dallas burbs. You don't have to live on Main Street downtown to find what you're seeking.
Last edited by TurtleCreek80; 01-24-2015 at 09:56 AM..
I suspect you grew up in NYC, Philly, or Boston where there is a critical mass of families living in a dense urban area. I think this has given you a very "romanticized" view of urban living in the DFW area. I lived in Manhattan for 5 years and know exactly the "city kids" of which you speak - savvy, independent, well-spoken, curious city explorers, etc. I've lived in central Dallas (Park Cities, Uptown/Turtle Creek, East Dallas, Preston Hollow) for all but my 5 years in NYC and can tell you the vision you have for raising city kids doesn't exist in uptown/downtown Dallas. 99.8% of people with kids move out of uptown/downtown by the time their oldest is kindergarten age.
*YOU* may be able to raise your kids to meet a lot of the above city benefits, but a few things to ponder:
1. They WILL be driving all over town to meet up with their friends. I'm going to assume- best-case scenario- your kids are enrolled in DISD magnets, not at North Dallas High (the neighborhood school). Their school friends are going to live ALL OVER Dallas (as far north as almost George Bush turnpike, as far south as I-20). That is a HUGE area to cover in a car and will ensure your teens are highway driving far more than kids who live in Lakewood or TCU area of FW and attend their neighborhood high school.
2. They WILL be lonely. You say being near family is great and I agree, but not having any kids living close by is not fun. And more work for mom & dad - who work 15-30 miles away- to arrange any sort of play dates with classmates who live further away. When you do your downtown/uptown staycation, take note of how many 10-18 year olds are walking around the neighborhood alone (without mom. & dad). That's a pretty good way to judge who may live nearby vs who drove in from another neighborhood to go to Klyde Warren Park. I doubt you will count more than one hand's worth.
3. You're being unbelievably naive about urban neighborhood schools. Take Milam Elementary, the neighborhood K-5 school for uptown/downtown. Yes, you are 100% correct that involved parents make a huge difference, but do you see what an uphill battle you're climbing if in your kid's 3rd grade class, YOU are the only involved parent out of 25? Imagine school for your child when he is surrounded by kids who don't care because their parents have told them school is stupid. Imagine school for your child when the older kids start to prey on the 4-5th graders to join this gang or that one. Or to start getting into the drug trade as a spotter or a runner. Imagine school for your child when half of his 3rd grade class hasn't learned to read yet. How much attention do you think your kid, who pays attention, is polite, and does his homework is going to get in a highly disrupted urban school where a quarter of the kids don't know where they'll sleep that night??? Huh ??? I don't need my kids to be in a perfect suburban environment, but I always want to be sure there are more involved parents than uninvolved ones-> that's the magic formula for the fsmilies who care to pull the other kids UP in life, not for the 1 involved family surrounded by 25 who don't care to have their kid pulled DOWN.
Please trust the people on this board who have more knowledge of Dallas than you, picking Lakewood or NOC will give your kids plenty of chances to become independent, savvy, etc. kids in those areas- as well as really any kids living in HPISD, north Dallas privates, or Lake Highland schools, definitely explore the city once in high school. I grew up in the Park Cities, but we were always hanging out in Deep Ellum/ Lower Greenville/ concerts at Fair Park or an old venue in Oak Cliff, or going to the downtown library for research, or doing volunteer work in urban West Dallas. I wasn't sheltered and knew my way around the city like the back of my hand by the time I graduated. I gained plenty of street smarts and could hold my own in an adult conversation from a young age. You can raise kids like this in ANY of the neighborhoods that loop around downtown that actually have families with kids living there. Young kids in Lakewood and the Park Cities play freely in their neighborhoods, not inside or in gated backyards like most Dallas burbs. You don't have to live on Main Street downtown to find what you're seeking.
I don't think you have to live in the city to create children that are savvy and street smart. I lived in the scenario I posted above, however, I was driving to concerts and following bands all over the Southeast and Mid-Atlantic by the time I was 17. Regularly skiing in Western NC to hold us over until we could get out West at some point, hiking in the Smoky Mountains, and all kinds of other recreational stuff.
It all depends on the culture you prefer. The NE is not for me, but I come from an outdoor lifestyle perspective. My career needs me here now, but little doubt we'll move to a more outdoor friendly location when possible.
This thread is really making me consider downtown fort worth over all areas. I want my sundance square in an urban area of Dallas. That just doesn't seem feasible. We want to be closer to family/friends in Dallas. There's a lot of family! I also have more networking opportunities in Dallas with an upcoming tech startup that I'll be working on. The demographics of Dallas include more of my potential target audience. Dallas city council should really call over to Fort Worth and figure out why espn has called downtown fort worth home for every huge event hosted in Arlington for the past three years and why Fort Worth has the best downtown in Texas (it's either ftw or austin hands down)
Solution: convince your family and friends to move to Fort Worth, launch your tech start-up in Fort Worth (I'd recommend reaching out to Tech Fort Worth and Cowtown Angels, there's a lot of private equity in Fort Worth and a very skilled advanced engineering labor force and Fort Worth is more fertile ground for tech than most recognize). Do that and all your problems are solved!
Please trust the people on this board who have more knowledge of Dallas than you, picking Lakewood or NOC will give your kids plenty of chances to become independent, savvy, etc. kids in those area
I trust them. They know Dallas better than me. I only lived there (north dallas) for 3years. And you're right. Its probably foolish looking for nyc neighborhoods in dallas. I will consider NOC but it is now trailing downtown fort worth
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RonnieinDallas
Downtown fort worth is better than dallas on street level. As much as I hate to admit it, i wish dallas was better. Downtown Dallas has a far better skyline and a more urban feel without a doubt. There is a reason espn chooses sundance square every single year over anywhere in dallas. I assume you havent been to downtown fort worth in a while. Pay it a visit one evening. You'll be surprised.
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Solution: convince your family and friends to move to Fort Worth, launch your tech start-up in Fort Worth (I'd recommend reaching out to Tech Fort Worth and Cowtown Angels, there's a lot of private equity in Fort Worth and a very skilled advanced engineering labor force and Fort Worth is more fertile ground for tech than most recognize). Do that and all your problems are solved!
Yea. That's what i'm leaning towards. I guess i was looking for sundance in dallas and was willing to commute to be closer to family. Fort worth will eventually surpass dallas in population and the upcoming trinity river project will make downtown ftw amazing so it cld also be a great investment. But fwisd sucks as well and turtlecreek brought up a good point with schools which makes keller seem not that bad after all.
Thanks everyone for your responses.
Anyway, thanks again posters.
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