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You will get no argument out of me that trans-pecos Texas is truly southwestern. I never thought otherwise. But let it be noted that the county which contains El Paso went overwhelmingly for secession...and a Confederate Monument is on the county courthouse square!
Well, yes, you have to know that Trans-Pecos Texas is culturally Confederate in order to claim that Texas in General is Confederate or Southern in its culture. You cannot have one without the other.
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Yet, with all due respect, you are speaking anamolies. The Upper Texas Panhandle has always been influenced more by the midwest than the South. BUT...this not true of the vast majority of West Texas.
I don't see any part of West Texas as similar to Mississippi or Alabama, any obvious influence of the deep South on that region. I don't see what you mean by "vast majority" of West Texas when you exclude the Amarillo-Lubbock Great Plains.
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You are comparing apples and oranges here in terms of settlement patterns. After 1836, about 85% of settlers -- if not more -- came to Texas from the southeastern states...especially Tennessee and Alabama.
In order for your thesis to be true, you have to show that West Texas and South Texas retained the same culture of Alabama and Mississippi. It doesn't appear to the the case. Further, 70% to 80% of migrants to California were from the Midwest, but that doesn't make California a Midwestern state.
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The cattle thing? The distinction is valid. The anglo/black Texas tradition was "drover" (cattle drives to Kansas and Missouri, etc), not the Mexican vaquero tending and herding. This can be easily researched. It isnt something I made up...
Even if true, the distinction is minor and irrelevant. It does not make West Texas look like North Carolina.
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Well, I dont feel like I have a "job" in the sense of having to prove anything. I am only giving my opinion and try and back it up with historical research. If you dont feel like Texas is essentially Southern, then I have no problem with that!
If you're trying to back your opinion with historical research, then yes, you are trying to prove something. And my skeptical attitude is not a matter of feeling and emotion, but is a legitimate exercise in historic criticism.
BTW, if you go the extra mile to explain your opinions, you are better than 99% of the yokels in the world who talk out of egomania and self-importance. I may disagree with you, but it's definitely cordial.
Well, yes, you have to know that Trans-Pecos Texas is culturally Confederate in order to claim that Texas in General is Confederate or Southern in its culture. You cannot have one without the other.
I am not sure what your are saying here....or where the disagreement comes in.
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don't see any part of West Texas as similar to Mississippi or Alabama, any obvious influence of the deep South on that region. I don't see what you mean by "vast majority" of West Texas when you exclude the Amarillo-Lubbock Great Plains.
Topographically, west Texas is NOT similar to Mississippi or Alabama. Culturally though, it is. BUT...it was settled by Southerners. The Southern Baptist Church is dominant in West Texas. The so called "Texas accent" is Southern in origin, in terms of both accent and idiom. And most West Texans consider themselves Southerners and to live in the South (still trying to locate that survey! LOL).
[quote] In order for your thesis to be true, you have to show that West Texas and South Texas retained the same culture of Alabama and Mississippi. It doesn't appear to the the case. [/QUOTE
You misunderstand. Of course, a culture evolves as it migrates. Just as the culture of migrants from South Carolina and Virginia did when they moved into Alabama and Mississippi. But the common denominator was a shared culture of blood and tradition. These things are strong ties...
The South has ALWAYS been more a state of mind and way of life and thinking than something so simply understood as being a beta...
[quote] Even if true, the distinction is minor and irrelevant. It does not make West Texas look like North Carolina. {/QUOTE]
No, but that was never the point. Arkansas doesn't look like North Carolina either. Or northern Alabama.
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BTW, if you go the extra mile to explain your opinions, you are better than 99% of the yokels in the world who talk out of egomania and self-importance. I may disagree with you, but it's definitely cordial.
We agree on this, for sure!
Now then, it is about time to wind it down for the evening! Gotta go to work tomorow! Enjoyed it, and will catch you later!
Topographically, west Texas is NOT similar to Mississippi or Alabama. Culturally though, it is. BUT...it was settled by Southerners. The Southern Baptist Church is dominant in West Texas. The so called "Texas accent" is Southern in origin, in terms of both accent and idiom. And most West Texans consider themselves Southerners and to live in the South (still trying to locate that survey! LOL).
I have friends in Midland to El Paso and they think of themselves as Texans but not Southerners. Must have been that way maybe 50 years ago. But nowadays, they feel they have alot in common with the southwest states just as much as they do with the rest of the state. I don't know. Very interesting conversation on the last two pages.
I would think most if not all Texans out there think of themselves that way. It's not "southern" at all. If anything, "west."
El Paso for certain. Midland likely, but not necessarily. I say that because according to one of those cultural surveys I mentioned earlier, when asked regional affiliation, respondents in the transpecos area (ala' El Paso) went expectedly with West. However, the rest of west Texas (Lubbock, Odessa, Midland, etc) went with South. Not NEARLY as much as did people in the eastern half of the state, but it was by a majority. Perhaps that is because many residents out there are decended from people who originally came from the Southern states. Anyway, it was interesting!
El Paso for certain. Midland likely, but not necessarily. I say that because according to one of those cultural surveys I mentioned earlier, when asked regional affiliation, respondents in the transpecos area (ala' El Paso) went expectedly with West. However, the rest of west Texas (Lubbock, Odessa, Midland, etc) went with South. Not NEARLY as much as did people in the eastern half of the state, but it was by a majority. Perhaps that is because many residents out there are decended from people who originally came from the Southern states. Anyway, it was interesting!
Well, an anectotal reference to some "survey" you claim to remember doesn't mean anything. Even if we had more data on this so-called survey, it would still be subject to criticism as to its methodology, validity, etc.
Plus the fact that you're the one claiming it exists. Maybe you're just trying to strengthen your case by coming up with something? Please don't take it the wrong way, but we have no reason to believe your claim is truthful, relevant, meaningful, etc. You're trying to make your point by citing yourself as a reference? That's like saying "I'm telling the truth. How do you know I'm telling the truth? Because I say so."
In other words, don't feed us a line of bull and claim it's caviar.
El Paso for certain. Midland likely, but not necessarily. I say that because according to one of those cultural surveys I mentioned earlier, when asked regional affiliation, respondents in the transpecos area (ala' El Paso) went expectedly with West. However, the rest of west Texas (Lubbock, Odessa, Midland, etc) went with South. Not NEARLY as much as did people in the eastern half of the state, but it was by a majority. Perhaps that is because many residents out there are decended from people who originally came from the Southern states. Anyway, it was interesting!
This is reminiscent of residents of the Bronx convinced they're Manhattanites, Mormons referring to themselves as Christian (brace yourself when broaching this subject to an actual Catholic priest or Protestant minister whose aim is to be explicit and forthright rather than ambiguous, vague, or polite), and descendants of Mexico referring to themselves - not merely their language - as being "Spanish." Semantics.
Count me in as another who would love to see any legitimate study representing the majority of west Texans citing southern affiliation.
Well, an anectotal reference to some "survey" you claim to remember doesn't mean anything. Even if we had more data on this so-called survey, it would still be subject to criticism as to its methodology, validity, etc.
Plus the fact that you're the one claiming it exists. Maybe you're just trying to strengthen your case by coming up with something? Please don't take it the wrong way, but we have no reason to believe your claim is truthful, relevant, meaningful, etc. You're trying to make your point by citing yourself as a reference? That's like saying "I'm telling the truth. How do you know I'm telling the truth? Because I say so."
In other words, don't feed us a line of bull and claim it's caviar.
As it turns out, I have located one of them. The figures are an average of 14polls taken between 1992 and 1999. To wit, the Southern Focus Poll from the U. of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, and conducted by "Southernologist" Dr. John Shelton Reed. You are free to accept or reject them as you see fit. It doesn't matter to me. But it can be independently verified and researched.
Percent who say their community is in the South (percentage base in parentheses)
West Virginia 25 (84) Maryland 19 (192) Missouri 15 (197) Delaware 12 (25) D.C. 12
In an interview Dr. Reed said of Texas that even though there was an expected east to west gradient, that most west Texans said they lived in the South (and yes, he even noted this as being somewhat surprising).
The other study I cited was originally published in Annals of the American Geographer and was compiled by Wilbur Zelinsky, called the "Changing American Regional Labels" (Or something like that). I will post the results of it when I dig it out as well. Anyway, in this one, 71% of Texans surveyed chose South as their regional afflication, the expected exception when broken down being in the trans-pecos region.
This is reminiscent of residents of the Bronx convinced they're Manhattanites, Mormons referring to themselves as Christian (brace yourself when broaching this subject to an actual Catholic priest or Protestant minister whose aim is to be explicit and forthright rather than ambiguous, vague, or polite), and descendants of Mexico referring to themselves - not merely their language - as being "Spanish." Semantics.
Count me in as another who would love to see any legitimate study representing the majority of west Texans citing southern affiliation.
Translation is that you will not accept anything that goes against your already formed opinion, right? That is fine. On a topic like this, personal opinion and experience are going to count for quite bit
As it turns out, I have located one of them. The figures are an average of 14polls taken between 1992 and 1999. To wit, the Southern Focus Poll from the U. of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, and conducted by "Southernologist" Dr. John Shelton Reed.
You might have to expect a "Southernologist" to come up with something that claims a Southern identity for Texas in general.
You are basically commiting the logical fallacy called "appeal to authority". If somebody says it is so, and you can cloak that somebody with an aura of authority, then people who depend on authority to tell them what to think will take his word for it.
In reality, there are as many opinions as there are scholars, so the opinion of any one of them, no matter how cloaked in jargon, is no better than any other. Naturally, each scholar is under pressure to devise some methodology to support his position, usually by designigning a process he describes as a study. Since the university receives half the grant money normally authorized for those "studies" for "administrative expenses", it is happy to hire and promote people who can justify these things. Every scholar has a vested interest in promoting himself and his ideas, be it status, university politics, grant money, publication, or whatever.
BTW, my cousin, Carlos Cuellar, a tenured PhD university professor and department head, will gladly support the opposing view, that Texas is not generically Southern.
Last edited by aceplace; 03-10-2008 at 11:02 AM..
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That is fine. On a topic like this, personal opinion and experience are going to count for quite bit
