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I was first considering Southlake for the excellent Carroll ISD schools but I am a little worried about academic pressure and class rank. Looked into Grapevine-Colleyville ISD and thrilled that they have a STEM program. My kids love that sort of thing. Then when I told my daughter about Keller’s STEM program and it’s partnership with Lockheed Martin she really became excited. Northwest ISD also sounds good with an accelerated high school option. Please help me decide. Below are my concerns.
Carroll ISD- too competitive of a school (class rank issues and general stress), heard about some racist incidents, will the extreme wealth be toxic?
Grapevine-Colleyville ISD- schools have kids in poverty conditions and some very rough looking areas in the school district
Keller ISD (Keller HS only)- the mascot is an Indian head. Are these racist people? I read that Native Americans and others tried to get them to change this but they refused. Will my kids be comfortable there? is the STEM program worth it if exposed to hatred?
Northwest ISD- not as academically strong overall but this may be easier for my kids to get the auto-admit to UT Austin if they decide to stick with Byron Nelson HS. Still a good school system so would be college ready.
Where would you move? Any input on the schools? Work from home most of the time but also travel for work so decent proximity to the airport is nice. Thank you.
My wife grew up in Southlake and opted out of Carroll in 9th or 10th grade (for a small private) for the very reasons you mentioned here. Too many people on this forum are solely focused on measurable test scores, but those are a pretty bad test of which school is best for your kid.
My opinion is that all of those schools are good, and most of the differences in test scores between them is attributable to differences in socioeconomic standing of the students, not necessarily in the quality of instruction or programming. If you have a bunch of doctors' and business executives' kids, they're going to have a high average IQ (IQ is at least half hereditary), will have been raised in an environment with high academic standards and will have had access to good educational opportunities. Those factors explain a lot of why schools like Carroll are ranked so highly -- tests are very much a proxy for that sort of thing, not the education quality at a school. But, like you've mentioned, there are tons of important factors that parents should consider, and schools like Carroll might be terrible for you.
My opinion, which you asked for, is that I would pick Grapevine. I like more economic and racial diversity. I highly doubt that there will be a big measurable difference in the outcome in 75th percentile Johnny's life between any of the schools mentioned.
Edit to add: I own a pretty large test prep company, so I think I have a different insight into this stuff than most. Whenever people start talking about test scores, one of two things is happening. Either they think a good education and good test scores both have a common cause (good school instruction) or they think good test scores are in-and-of-themselves valuable, and they are picking the school for that specific benefit. The first one is tenuous at best, and we can get into why if anyone is interested. The second one is nonsense. If you have the specific goal of your kid having good test scores, a tutor is going to have a stronger effect on that than any school could. Don't pick where you live just so your kid gets an extra eighty points on his SAT. You can buy that from people like me (in the tutoring sense, not the recent scandal sense).
Also, I have no insight regarding Keller's mascot, but I highly doubt Keller has more racists than Southlake or other surrounding areas.
Last edited by Wittgenstein's Ghost; 02-29-2020 at 08:57 PM..
Thank you so much for your insight. As to the test scores, I agree but that wasn’t what I was getting at. Since this is Texas, it would be good to be in the top 6% or whatever it will be when my kids apply to college. I would love for my kids to go to UT Austin. It’s a great school and I could save some money. Plus, college is so ridiculously hard to get into nowadays. A guaranteed acceptance at a great school that is in my budget would be amazing. If being in the top 6% at Carroll ISD is unrealistic then maybe they would be better off in another school district. Or maybe that’s not good logic. I am probably overthinking everything but it’s a big decision.
Thank you so much for your insight. As to the test scores, I agree but that wasn’t what I was getting at. Since this is Texas, it would be good to be in the top 6% or whatever it will be when my kids apply to college. I would love for my kids to go to UT Austin. It’s a great school and I could save some money. Plus, college is so ridiculously hard to get into nowadays. A guaranteed acceptance at a great school that is in my budget would be amazing. If being in the top 6% at Carroll ISD is unrealistic then maybe they would be better off in another school district. Or maybe that’s not good logic. I am probably overthinking everything but it’s a big decision.
My point about test scores was that many people on this forum elevate school rankings from sites like Niche and Great Schools, which are heavily based on test scores, too much. So I'm not sure I agree that some of the "worse" schools on your list, like Grapevine or Northwest ISD, are actually worse schools. That means that you aren't actually giving up all that much if you choose those routes, even if that would be an unpopular decision on this board.
Good luck with the process, but I'd caution you that the top 6% at any of those schools is still a tough bargain. You know your kids better than any of us, so only you can answer whether that is realistic or not. But If your kid is smart enough and a hard enough worker to finish in the top 6% at these schools, he or she is probably smart enough and a hard enough worker to gain admission the old fashioned way at a lot of schools. I'm also not sure that Grapevine or Northwest ISD are "easier enough" to warrant this kind of big decision. There aren't that many kids who could be in their top 6% but not in the top 6% at Carroll.
I'd also caution you against getting locked into a specific college for your kids at this point.
Last edited by Wittgenstein's Ghost; 02-29-2020 at 10:09 PM..
I hear what you are saying. And yes, probably still incredibly difficult to get top 6% at any of these schools. I actually know people who move out to remote areas just to accomplish this. That’s too extreme for me and I wonder what happens once they go to college. I am looking for a good balance where they will be college ready yet not overwhelmed by the pressure. In my dream world they would get into UT Austin but who knows if that will happen.
I know it’s not politically correct to say, but I do worry about the issues that come from a population who are living close to poverty in Grapevine. On the other hand, I also worry about rich kids in Southlake. Extremes tend to have some similar issues that middle class people don’t have as much of. Just my observations. Since we are minorities, it is important that my kids feel welcome. I saw those racist videos of the Southlake kids and it made my stomach turn. But I do think that the Southlake administration handled it well and I appreciate that. There is racism everywhere. Just a fact of life. My kids need to learn to deal with it but I wouldn’t want to throw them to the wolves either. I will have to research Keller more. I like how it’s a more if a country feel and I am impressed with the STEM program. The mascot thing does give me pause. It’s racist and they should know better. But is it going to stop me from moving there? Probably not. I am strongly considering GCISD after meeting with a counselor at Grapevine HS. The school is not physically impressive but they have so many good programs and seemed like a friendly place. They have the Hope Squad for suicide prevention which is important to me. My kid’s emotional health and safety are the most important. Since they are so strong with mathematics and science, a STEM program would keep their interest. It sounds like Keller may have better STEM offerings so I will look into it more. Hopefully it’s just people being stubborn and clinging to tradition rather than anything sinister.
I hear what you are saying. And yes, probably still incredibly difficult to get top 6% at any of these schools. I actually know people who move out to remote areas just to accomplish this. That’s too extreme for me and I wonder what happens once they go to college. I am looking for a good balance where they will be college ready yet not overwhelmed by the pressure. In my dream world they would get into UT Austin but who knows if that will happen.
I know it’s not politically correct to say, but I do worry about the issues that come from a population who are living close to poverty in Grapevine. On the other hand, I also worry about rich kids in Southlake. Extremes tend to have some similar issues that middle class people don’t have as much of. Just my observations. Since we are minorities, it is important that my kids feel welcome. I saw those racist videos of the Southlake kids and it made my stomach turn. But I do think that the Southlake administration handled it well and I appreciate that. There is racism everywhere. Just a fact of life. My kids need to learn to deal with it but I wouldn’t want to throw them to the wolves either. I will have to research Keller more. I like how it’s a more if a country feel and I am impressed with the STEM program. The mascot thing does give me pause. It’s racist and they should know better. But is it going to stop me from moving there? Probably not. I am strongly considering GCISD after meeting with a counselor at Grapevine HS. The school is not physically impressive but they have so many good programs and seemed like a friendly place. They have the Hope Squad for suicide prevention which is important to me. My kid’s emotional health and safety are the most important. Since they are so strong with mathematics and science, a STEM program would keep their interest. It sounds like Keller may have better STEM offerings so I will look into it more. Hopefully it’s just people being stubborn and clinging to tradition rather than anything sinister.
I think you’re taking the fact that Grapevine-Colleyville ISD has some low income families and blowing it way out of proportion. 22% of GCISD students qualify for free lunch at school. The fact that the district has such strong test scores and college preparedness ratings AND a very high graduation rate means the district is doing a very good job of educating these “at risk” students and preparing them for a better future.
Plano ISD has 27% free lunch and no one would ever say to avoid Plano because of “issues poor people have.”
My advice: visit the high schools in each of the districts you’re considering, go to 1-2 school events if you have time (a school play, a baseball game, etc - all are generally open to the public if you buy tickets) and see where your family feels the most comfortable. Then move there.
It’s one thing to have high standards for your kids and help them take steps to thrive as well-rounded, adjusted human beings (being a good & loyal friend, having empathy, being honest and truthful, persevering through mistakes / challenges, etc) - AND reach their dreams. It’s another to forcefully push “you must get top 6% so you can go to UT” on them. I’m not saying you’re intentionally doing that but choosing a school district to try to game the top 6% rule IS putting your kids in the same kind of pressure cooker environment found at Southlake. The pressure is just coming from you instead of their peers in the form of “we moved to XYZ so you better get top 6% or I’ll be extra disappointed in you.” Just food for thought
My husband and I have lived in Grapevine since 2002. We don’t have kids, so our observations of GCISD are mainly based on friends’ experiences with their kids, friends who are GCISD teachers' and my husband’s experience as a substitute teacher while he was finishing his graduate degree.
Grapevine and Colleyville both have economic diversity that few other schools in this area do because of the older apartments and trailer parks in their attendance zones. There are a lot of ESL kids who come from these, which make GCISD schools’ scores lower than Southlake and other nearby districts that do not have these things. Most posters seem to want their kids to be surrounded by kids of other races and economic levels, so I am intrigued that you don’t want this for your kids. As for crime or violence, my husband and I haven’t personally experienced anything. I do know there are petty thefts and auto break-ins in those complexes, but there are few spill-overs into the nearby neighborhoods. The Grapevine PD does a very good job patrolling those complexes!
You are right to worry about peer pressure and academic rank at Southlake. It’s a real issue. Southlake has also had several recent instances of students spray painting racist graffiti on school property. (Look it up; all the local TV stations covered it.)
As for moving out to a remote area so your kid can be valedictorian and have guaranteed admission at UT... you can do that, but it’s probably also going to take away from the quality of academics at the school they attend. There are smaller schools in Texas that also provide very good academics, but as a general rule, the suburban ISDs are usually among the best.
The Keller HS mascot has been that character for at least 50 years, well before I was in high school. Keep in mind that changing a mascot has considerable expense for a school district. (Signs, athletic and band uniforms, stadium logos, etc.) I don’t live in Keller so I don’t know if there have even been recent calls to change it.
I think you’re taking the fact that Grapevine-Colleyville ISD has some low income families and blowing it way out of proportion. 22% of GCISD students qualify for free lunch at school. The fact that the district has such strong test scores and college preparedness ratings AND a very high graduation rate means the district is doing a very good job of educating these “at risk” students and preparing them for a better future.
Plano ISD has 27% free lunch and no one would ever say to avoid Plano because of “issues poor people have.”
My advice: visit the high schools in each of the districts you’re considering, go to 1-2 school events if you have time (a school play, a baseball game, etc - all are generally open to the public if you buy tickets) and see where your family feels the most comfortable. Then move there.
It’s one thing to have high standards for your kids and help them take steps to thrive as well-rounded, adjusted human beings (being a good & loyal friend, having empathy, being honest and truthful, persevering through mistakes / challenges, etc) - AND reach their dreams. It’s another to forcefully push “you must get top 6% so you can go to UT” on them. I’m not saying you’re intentionally doing that but choosing a school district to try to game the top 6% rule IS putting your kids in the same kind of pressure cooker environment found at Southlake. The pressure is just coming from you instead of their peers in the form of “we moved to XYZ so you better get top 6% or I’ll be extra disappointed in you.” Just food for thought
Both poor people and rich people tend to have more issues with drugs from what I have observed. This isn’t a discussion about Plano, but I wouldn’t want my kids there. Plano East and Plano West are very different and I wouldn’t want either. Lots of problems in Plano. It’s not that I don’t want socio-economic diversity but my eyes are open when it comes to the issues at both ends of the spectrum.
You don’t know my relationship with my kids. I don’t pressure them but I do try to help them in life. Class rank could matter and it is a consideration. I said that I heard of people going to remote areas to get auto admit to UT Austin but I wouldn’t do that. I would worry about them not being college ready and suffering later. I wouldn’t think it is pressure cooker. The kids I know who did this found it incredibly easy to be top of the class. I never suggested doing this with my own kids. I want them to have a good education. But I don’t want them at a school that is so stressful and competitive that they would have to stay up until 2 in the morning studying just to keep up. There should be a balance.
My husband and I have lived in Grapevine since 2002. We don’t have kids, so our observations of GCISD are mainly based on friends’ experiences with their kids, friends who are GCISD teachers' and my husband’s experience as a substitute teacher while he was finishing his graduate degree.
Grapevine and Colleyville both have economic diversity that few other schools in this area do because of the older apartments and trailer parks in their attendance zones. There are a lot of ESL kids who come from these, which make GCISD schools’ scores lower than Southlake and other nearby districts that do not have these things. Most posters seem to want their kids to be surrounded by kids of other races and economic levels, so I am intrigued that you don’t want this for your kids. As for crime or violence, my husband and I haven’t personally experienced anything. I do know there are petty thefts and auto break-ins in those complexes, but there are few spill-overs into the nearby neighborhoods. The Grapevine PD does a very good job patrolling those complexes!
You are right to worry about peer pressure and academic rank at Southlake. It’s a real issue. Southlake has also had several recent instances of students spray painting racist graffiti on school property. (Look it up; all the local TV stations covered it.)
As for moving out to a remote area so your kid can be valedictorian and have guaranteed admission at UT... you can do that, but it’s probably also going to take away from the quality of academics at the school they attend. There are smaller schools in Texas that also provide very good academics, but as a general rule, the suburban ISDs are usually among the best.
The Keller HS mascot has been that character for at least 50 years, well before I was in high school. Keep in mind that changing a mascot has considerable expense for a school district. (Signs, athletic and band uniforms, stadium logos, etc.) I don’t live in Keller so I don’t know if there have even been recent calls to change it.
Yeah, I am not planning on doing that because my kids need to be college ready. It’s a shame about Southlake. It’s so pretty but I am thinking it’s not the right place for us. I do want racial diversity but I currently live in an area nearby some older apartments and it absolutely brings crime. It’s nothing to do with race. I think it’s mixed at the apartments near me now. Lots of whites with other races. It also impacted the schools who need a lot more resources and don’t seem to be managing that well. In a perfect world money wouldn’t matter. But it does. I do need some racial diversity so my kids won’t feel so different. I guess everything is a give and take. I absolutely love Southlake. It’s so pretty but I don’t want my kids stressed out or bullied for their race.
My husband and I have lived in Grapevine since 2002. We don’t have kids, so our observations of GCISD are mainly based on friends’ experiences with their kids, friends who are GCISD teachers' and my husband’s experience as a substitute teacher while he was finishing his graduate degree.
Grapevine and Colleyville both have economic diversity that few other schools in this area do because of the older apartments and trailer parks in their attendance zones. There are a lot of ESL kids who come from these, which make GCISD schools’ scores lower than Southlake and other nearby districts that do not have these things. Most posters seem to want their kids to be surrounded by kids of other races and economic levels, so I am intrigued that you don’t want this for your kids. As for crime or violence, my husband and I haven’t personally experienced anything. I do know there are petty thefts and auto break-ins in those complexes, but there are few spill-overs into the nearby neighborhoods. The Grapevine PD does a very good job patrolling those complexes!
You are right to worry about peer pressure and academic rank at Southlake. It’s a real issue. Southlake has also had several recent instances of students spray painting racist graffiti on school property. (Look it up; all the local TV stations covered it.)
As for moving out to a remote area so your kid can be valedictorian and have guaranteed admission at UT... you can do that, but it’s probably also going to take away from the quality of academics at the school they attend. There are smaller schools in Texas that also provide very good academics, but as a general rule, the suburban ISDs are usually among the best.
The Keller HS mascot has been that character for at least 50 years, well before I was in high school. Keep in mind that changing a mascot has considerable expense for a school district. (Signs, athletic and band uniforms, stadium logos, etc.) I don’t live in Keller so I don’t know if there have even been recent calls to change it.
Oh WOW. I googled it. Yeah, the racist graffiti in Southlake! That is so sad. I heard about the multiple videos of kids singing the N word but this is just WOW. Thank you. Really sad but it is good that I see this. I would be crying if I lived there. Thank you so much for alerting me to this. So, so ugly. I didn’t hear about this so thanks again.
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