Plano Tomorrow Plan Voided (Dallas, Fort Worth: section 8, sale, condo)

[Sunbather]

Originally Posted by jiping

People in the US have a tendency to relate everything to race. Obviously Philip T was talking about financially exclusive.



What's the last time you talk with someone in their 20s? When I check Reddit, they are now accusing Plano of "white supremacy racist Hilter" or something.

Well, my wife is in her 20s and we both still have a lot of close friends in our 20s. But to be fair, Plano isn't a hot topic of conversation so I might be behind.

Originally Posted by Philip T

You may missed. I have been corrected.

The PC word of the day is "expensive." Not "exclusive."

Comedy.

I'm not really hung up on any PC-ness of the word exclusive, but even if we're equating exclusive purely with expensive, I don't see Plano as a prohibitively expensive area. Unless I'm missing something or we're referring to specific, cherry picked sub-areas of Plano. I've only been here for about 5 years, so maybe my perception is a bit skewed. To me it has come off as a fairly clean, safe family-oriented suburb with pretty affordable homes for a generally middle class family. Isn't the median home price there like $325k or something in that ballpark?

[TheViking85]

It's closer to $350k, which is out of reach for the official definition of middle class.

[jiping]

Originally Posted by Sunbather

I'm not really hung up on any PC-ness of the word exclusive, but even if we're equating exclusive purely with expensive, I don't see Plano as a prohibitively expensive area. Unless I'm missing something or we're referring to specific, cherry picked sub-areas of Plano. I've only been here for about 5 years, so maybe my perception is a bit skewed. To me it has come off as a fairly clean, safe family-oriented suburb with pretty affordable homes for a generally middle class family. Isn't the median home price there like $325k or something in that ballpark?

That's correct. Most places in the city are not prohibitively expensive compared to other northern suburbs, and no one suggested otherwise in this thread. What's being discussed is the direction Plano is moving to. By eliminating the multifamily apartment plan, Plano has become a little more exclusive, getting away with entitled millennials who cannot afford even $325k but demand nice education and safety.

[turf3]

So, leaving aside the silliness of calling a city "exclusive" where no one is excluded as long as they have the money:


So, what's to stop developers from buying land and putting up great honkin' swathes of apartment buildings, if they think they can make money at it? You don't really think the city council won't do whatever needs to be done about zoning once the ca$e for approval is pre$ented?

[jpushiys]

Originally Posted by TheViking85

Because resorting to building luxury housing that's well outside the price range of the middle class, which in turn continue to appreciate the current housing stock out of reach as well and working so tenaciously to ensure housing we could afford won't be built. It's obvious to me that we're not the residents that are desired in Plano, which I think it's a shame but it is what it is.

I don't think that's true and I hope u don't feel that way just because of a one-sided news story. The coalition that came together to oppose Plano Tomorrow was across the economic and political spectrum, and one group of people objected specifically because it did not account for affordable housing. Now... - many people read 'affordable housing' and automatically think rental apartments, but apartments don't allow residents to build wealth through home ownership. What we need are affordable units that can be owned and not rented, and many Plano residents opposed Plano Tomorrow because it made no provisions for affordable *resident owned* housing options. What no one wanted was a city of expensive homes and rental apartments with no options in between.

Eventually - If we get this right - there should be NON rental housing options for many more economic strata than we have today so that the city can attract a younger demographic that is needed to keep it vibrant without sacrificing any of the things that make it so desirable today. Denser housing is the answer, but not rentals.

[TheViking85]

Originally Posted by jpushiys

I don't think that's true and I hope u don't feel that way just because of a one-sided news story. The coalition that came together to oppose Plano Tomorrow was across the economic and political spectrum, and one group of people objected specifically because it did not account for affordable housing. Now... - many people read 'affordable housing' and automatically think rental apartments, but apartments don't allow residents to build wealth through home ownership. What we need are affordable units that can be owned and not rented, and many Plano residents opposed Plano Tomorrow because it made no provisions for affordable *resident owned* housing options. What no one wanted was a city of expensive homes and rental apartments with no options in between.

Eventually - If we get this right - there should be NON rental housing options for many more economic strata than we have today so that the city can attract a younger demographic that is needed to keep it vibrant without sacrificing any of the things that make it so desirable today. Denser housing is the answer, but not rentals.

I don't share the sentiment and disagree with the interpretation of the roadmap that was implemented as well as the general consensus I've heard from most who opposed it. (As exemplified by the OP's recent responses).

It has admittedly been about 4 years since I read the entire roadmap, but nowhere did it promote a rental unit only approach (nor is this the case in some of the developments that at least in part follows the ideas set forth, Heritage Creekside, Collin Creek redevelopment and Legacy West as examples all of which includes housing for sale), while a stronger focus specifically on ensuring more affordable housing wouldn't have hurt, it was, at the end of the day, just a roadmap to lay the groundwork for further decisions.

It it completely accurate that Plano is not alone in no longer being affordable, it's near universal across the northern suburbs. But where they could have been a leader in bucking that trend, they no longer will be.

Thankfully the one small positive to come out of COVID-19 is that remote work has gotten far more traction and income is no longer location based, so as long as a stable internet connection can be found, we can live pretty much anywhere.

I always liked living in Plano, in large part because of where it was headed, but it's clear now that we "need not apply", it'll be a shame to see a city with relative promise of becoming a force of it's own fade into obscurity though, but Ce la vie.

[biafra4life]

Originally Posted by jpushiys

I don't think that's true and I hope u don't feel that way just because of a one-sided news story. The coalition that came together to oppose Plano Tomorrow was across the economic and political spectrum, and one group of people objected specifically because it did not account for affordable housing. Now... - many people read 'affordable housing' and automatically think rental apartments, but apartments don't allow residents to build wealth through home ownership. What we need are affordable units that can be owned and not rented, and many Plano residents opposed Plano Tomorrow because it made no provisions for affordable *resident owned* housing options. What no one wanted was a city of expensive homes and rental apartments with no options in between.

Eventually - If we get this right - there should be NON rental housing options for many more economic strata than we have today so that the city can attract a younger demographic that is needed to keep it vibrant without sacrificing any of the things that make it so desirable today. Denser housing is the answer, but not rentals.

While this is all a very noble sentiment, the problem becomes just how would the city ensure that the non rental options are affordable? There is a scarcity of land in Plano thus any available land will always command a premium. This pretty much rules out construction of cheaper housing. The developer would not get the return on investment to make it worth his/her while. All that would happen is that you would have condos and townhomes costing well over $300K, if not more. Not something that I would consider affordable to middle/working class families. I suspect this is what the city government probably ran into and so went in the opposite direction and looked to apartments instead.

[Peter5457]

Blame the darn farmers. they control the little land still available and they makin billions. some builders are tryin to make affordable houses in plano but they gotta make money too. so they buildin tiny houses now, startin around $400k. Don't ask what the nicer houses built on small lots are going for in plano. Even current homeowners in plano can't afford those. We're all in the same boat, darn those white and tan supremacists.

[turf3]

What about that whole area between K and Shiloh, and between 14th and Park (roughly)? Aren't all those small houses from the 50s and 60s still there and available?

[jpushiys]

Originally Posted by biafra4life

While this is all a very noble sentiment, the problem becomes just how would the city ensure that the non rental options are affordable? There is a scarcity of land in Plano thus any available land will always command a premium. This pretty much rules out construction of cheaper housing. The developer would not get the return on investment to make it worth his/her while. All that would happen is that you would have condos and townhomes costing well over $300K, if not more. Not something that I would consider affordable to middle/working class families. I suspect this is what the city government probably ran into and so went in the opposite direction and looked to apartments instead.

Excellent points above. But this is exactly why you do urban planning. Plano paid big bucks to outside consultants to help with preparing the Plano Tomorrow plan and I find it hard to believe that they did not anticipate affordability issues when you and I can see it coming a mile away. This is where many feel that the Plano Tomorrow plan is less visionary than it is being made out to be. A truly brave future facing plan is one where the planners should be wiling to experiment with different housing options and have fallback plans to accommodate every economic strata.

The Mustang Square project was one project that galvanized many residents during the last election. The revisions made to the project - while far from perfect, and not all for the right reasons - does offer a way forward :

https://communityimpact.com/dallas-f...ant-revisions/

This is a good example of the re-thinking that needs to happen on a broader scale. Developers are always going to push for more apartments. It is up to the city to stand its ground. There is no point in coming up with a grand future plan if you let developers dilute it at the first sign of trouble.

Affordable *resident owned* housing does not have any easy answers and I certainly don't claim otherwise. But I don't want to give up looking for answers. A city with a starkly divided population of haves (mansions dwellers) and have-nots(apartment renters) is a poorly planned city and will not remain desirable for long.

Not just Plano but all of North Texas needs to think through what their future is going to look like. We cannot price out younger buyers or relegate them to rentals and hope to avoid the inevitable urban decay that will follow when the existing housing stock ages.