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Ambassador, you certainly have a cynical and sour look on things. You must live the suburban sprawl portions of our area. I think I have a few decades of experience IN Dallas over you and though I have not lived anywhere else except Houston, I have spent most of my time traveling to 'walkable' cities throughout the world.
No Dallas does not have the culture or walkablity of NYC. Of course not. But we can still think it's better if we wish, just as NYers think anything west of the Hudson is flyover territory.
Dallas has made great strides with DART, TODs, urban development, Downtown (been there lately and waited behind a velvet rope?) and the 'streetcar suburbs' (East Dallas, Oak Cliff, Oak Lawn, etc) of the early 1900s are fairly walkable. Last Friday night was a seven minute walk to the Lakewood Theater for me and I spent the whole evening in the shopping center, for example.
You must be unfamiliar with Dallas people if you think everyone wants to avoid social contact - it is the exact opposite where I live. So please don't impose your impressions of the prairie north of Dallas inhabited by non-natives as representative of my home town.
Ambassador, you certainly have a cynical and sour look on things. You must live the suburban sprawl portions of our area. I think I have a few decades of experience IN Dallas over you and though I have not lived anywhere else except Houston, I have spent most of my time traveling to 'walkable' cities throughout the world.
No Dallas does not have the culture or walkablity of NYC. Of course not. But we can still think it's better if we wish, just as NYers think anything west of the Hudson is flyover territory.
Dallas has made great strides with DART, TODs, urban development, Downtown (been there lately and waited behind a velvet rope?) and the 'streetcar suburbs' (East Dallas, Oak Cliff, Oak Lawn, etc) of the early 1900s are fairly walkable. Last Friday night was a seven minute walk to the Lakewood Theater for me and I spent the whole evening in the shopping center, for example.
You must be unfamiliar with Dallas people if you think everyone wants to avoid social contact - it is the exact opposite where I live. So please don't impose your impressions of the prairie north of Dallas inhabited by non-natives as representative of my home town.
I'm not going to argue with you as you are representative of the people I was talking about in the first place.
YOUR TOWN??? First of all, Dallas was there before you ever came along and will still be there after you are gone. Second, I was born and raised in Dallas. Unlike you, my time wasn't limited to Lakewood. I lived on both sides of D/FW airport during my childhood before settling down in Plano during college and later moving to the Addison area. I lived on Main st in Downtown Dallas in the Post Wilson building in between.
How wonderful you spent your night walking around a shopping center; but that is exactly what I was talking about. Urban planners would laugh if you made an argument for Dallas' walkability by mentioning a stroll around a shopping center. Again, Lakewood is one pocket inside a very large metroplex. As for social contact you are again limiting your vision. Young people in their 20s and early 30s ATTEMPTING to live that NYC lifestyle are going to be very social. But venture if you dare outside of Lakewood and into any suburb, not just the northern ones. Try H-E-B, Colleyville, Keller, South Lake, Grapevine, Wylie, and yes Plano, Frisco, Carrollton or any other burb around Dallas. Then go and see just how "social" those suburbanites are. Especially the prissy house moms with their oversized sunglasses and cars darting around the sub-divisions while talking on their cell phones and holding a starbucks cup with an attention starved kid in tow.
Sorry, life around the metroplex is not all the "walked to the theater and took a stroll around a shopping center" excitement of Lakewood. I have lived in a handful of cities since leaving Dallas, including being sent back to Dallas just last year; and all save for two had more activites than Dallas and were more walkable. I'm not even going to mention NYC because that would be too easy. Boston and San Diego both offered entertainment and a social life unmatched back down in Texas. Now my home is Seattle and my quality of life has improved beyond any words I could mention here. I walk everywhere...I don't drive somewhere and then walk. No, I actually leave my front steps and walk everywhere to eat, shop, drink, socialize...you name it. I have the ocean, the mountains, a walkable cosmopolitan city with all the entertainment and activities associated with all those things listed above.
Dallas is not bad if that is your thing. My point has always been to keep the reality of Dallas in foucs and not try to pass it off as some world class, hip, urban city. The reality is that of suburban sprawl with pockets of exceptions which are too small and few to make up for the endless stretches of 'burbs. If somebody is looking for that suburban lifestyle with the long commutes...then great. Dallas may just fit their bill. But if somebody is seeking something different it never ceases to amaze me how quickly some Dallasites like Lakewooder will jump at the opportunity to pass Dallas off as some smaller, friendlier version of New York City.
On another note: Were you really singing the praises of the Lakewood shopping center? Really? Hopefully you didn't spend your entire night inside of the Centinnial Liquor store. Try the Shops of Legacy in north west Plano as a much nicer alternative. It even has an Angelika Film theater there. Of course, that would require leaving Lakewood for an evening......
Last edited by Ambassador; 12-22-2008 at 05:34 PM..
Location: from houstoner to bostoner to new yorker to new jerseyite ;)
4,084 posts, read 12,683,905 times
Reputation: 1974
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ambassador
Lack of vision was definently a major force behind the current state of the Dallas/Ft Worth metroplex. That same lack of vision was present in many of the major Southern metros.
What happened is that there was a time, between the 50s and 90s when sprawling suburbs were all the rage in the South. That fever even spilled over into a few metros in other regions such as Los Angelas on the west coast and pretty much any city in Ohio and Indiana. During that craze real estate developers tapped into a market which allowed them to raise one subdivision after another for a very low cost.
The costs were kept low because the land was being used nearly exclusively for residential areas, most homes were built from the same mold(hence the term "cookie cutter") and any businesses near these sub-divisions were major franchises which could employ people cheaply..usually from the surrounding residences. Independent, family owned businesses have no room in suburbia.
More and more people flocked to cities such as Dallas so they could purchase a home cheaply within a cookie cutter sub-division where safety(From things like crime, pollution, and nuclear attack) were big selling points. Yes, nuclear attack. Remember that much of today's subruban sprawl was built during the cold war when it was believed that any attack would occur in a city center...somehow sparing those living the farthest from it That theroy was debunked sometime in the 70s, but it didn't slow down the sprawl that was already underway.
Dallas was never planned or developed with pedestrians in mind. To make matters worse, nobody ever complained. People who were born in Dallas or moved here were more than happy to see their commute times increase each year....not to mention their waist lines. Why walk when they could drive? Meanwile the sprawl kept getting bigger and bigger.
Then something interesting happened. Sometime in the mid 90s people around the country began to get socially conscience of certain things such as health, the environment, and gas prices. By the turn of the Century it was a front and center issue. Soon, many metro areas around the nation began seeing a reverse trend of people seeking to move closer to the city centers. In Dallas that was not so much the case. Sure, there were the cases of this person or that person who moved from Plano to Downtown Dallas. For the most part, however the sprawl continued to grow further and further North and East.
Culture. That is much of the problem in Dallas these days. Many people have become so accostomed to the suburbia lifestyle that no amount of obesity or gas bill will make them want to walk places or interact with people for more than a few minutes. Those who like living in Dallas but hate the car culture seek assylum in a few pockets that allow a little walking here and there...but all in all this city was not built for the pedestrian. The lanes are wide and long. Sidewalks are non existent in most areas. Where there are sidewalks many are very narrow and/or overgrown with grass. Plus, if you do dare walk the 20 minutes from your subdivision to the nearest Krogers you will be virtually the only one...all alone in your walk.
That is just the way things are in Dallas. Most people like it that way, obviously or else the city would have taken a different path. Personally I can't stand it. I never could despite being born and raised in the area. What bugs me is that apologetics will try to have it both ways. They will argue in favor of Dallas' sprawling suburbs then turn around and attempt to argue in favor of Dallas' walkability and cosmopolitan lifestyle. Sorry, that is just not true. Accept Dallas for what it is. If you like it, great. If not then look elsewhere. I did and found my home in Seattle where I walk nearly everywhere plus bike all around town.
Good post. Don't underestimate the power of shows like Seinfeld and Friends on people wanting to live in walkable cities closer to the action, once they realized such cities existed and weren't as dangerous as they'd been told. I think you've hit on something rarely taken into account, too, and that is that suburban values predominate in these types of cities. Houston and Dallas are unfortunately overshadowed by their suburbs, and that is the single biggest roadblock that most negatively impacts both cities in becoming more truly urban. I've finally accepted the fact that Houston will never be the city I dream of, or it won't be soon enough--one in which I can live virtually car-free, and one where the city's youth and creatives are an integral part of the fabric of the city, rather than being shoved mostly underground-- and that it will keep forever spiraling outward, so I'm planning on getting out of Dodge as well.
Location: from houstoner to bostoner to new yorker to new jerseyite ;)
4,084 posts, read 12,683,905 times
Reputation: 1974
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lakewooder
Ambassador, you certainly have a cynical and sour look on things. You must live the suburban sprawl portions of our area. I think I have a few decades of experience IN Dallas over you and though I have not lived anywhere else except Houston, I have spent most of my time traveling to 'walkable' cities throughout the world.
No Dallas does not have the culture or walkablity of NYC. Of course not. But we can still think it's better if we wish, just as NYers think anything west of the Hudson is flyover territory.
Dallas has made great strides with DART, TODs, urban development, Downtown (been there lately and waited behind a velvet rope?) and the 'streetcar suburbs' (East Dallas, Oak Cliff, Oak Lawn, etc) of the early 1900s are fairly walkable. Last Friday night was a seven minute walk to the Lakewood Theater for me and I spent the whole evening in the shopping center, for example.
You must be unfamiliar with Dallas people if you think everyone wants to avoid social contact - it is the exact opposite where I live. So please don't impose your impressions of the prairie north of Dallas inhabited by non-natives as representative of my home town.
Lakewooder, I wouldn't take offense. I think he mentioned areas such as where you and I live as exceptions. But he is right. We are sadly outnumbered. I, for one, am giving up the fight. Not that there's anything wrong with either city, but they are what they are, and they're not right for everyone, not for those of us seeking a more urban lifestyle. (I hate to keep using the term "urban," but I guess that's what best encapsulates it.) There aren't that many other places like the Heights or Montrose in Houston, just as there aren't that many other Lakewoods in Dallas, while there are a plethora of 'burbs to choose from, a seemingly endless supply, in fact. That's what I lament, anyway. Lack of choices for those of us who want something different...
Ambassador, you certainly have a cynical and sour look on things. You must live the suburban sprawl portions of our area. I think I have a few decades of experience IN Dallas over you and though I have not lived anywhere else except Houston, I have spent most of my time traveling to 'walkable' cities throughout the world.
No Dallas does not have the culture or walkablity of NYC. Of course not. But we can still think it's better if we wish, just as NYers think anything west of the Hudson is flyover territory.
Dallas has made great strides with DART, TODs, urban development, Downtown (been there lately and waited behind a velvet rope?) and the 'streetcar suburbs' (East Dallas, Oak Cliff, Oak Lawn, etc) of the early 1900s are fairly walkable. Last Friday night was a seven minute walk to the Lakewood Theater for me and I spent the whole evening in the shopping center, for example.
You must be unfamiliar with Dallas people if you think everyone wants to avoid social contact - it is the exact opposite where I live. So please don't impose your impressions of the prairie north of Dallas inhabited by non-natives as representative of my home town.
I'm going with Lakewooder on this one. Dallas is a very nice city that is getting better and better all the time.
And about the avoiding eye contact thing, I am originally from NYC and lived there for many years before moving to the DFW area where I have lived now for many years as well.....and one thing I noticed right away when we first moved here was how friendly everybody is here and how they stop and take time to say hello and talk to you. Where as in NYC(even though I love it there and still go there all the time for business trips and visits), they are always in fast-pace and don't take any time to smile or say hello to someone.
I have lived in two of those three and both Boston and San Diego are expensive. However, so is Dallas. How can that be you say? Dallas is cheap, right? Well, when people say Dallas is cheap what they really mean is Frisco is cheap. Arlington is cheap. Denton is cheap. Dallas homes are not any cheaper than San Diego or Boston.
Infact when you factor in the grossly out of proportion property taxes in Texas, you can actually call the three a wash on real easte unless you're careful. But for things like food and gas, Dallas and surrounding areas are cheaper than the two others.
Since when is Frisco, Arlington, and Denton cheap! I live in a very nice house in Frisco and it is not cheap! I am also very familiar with Arlington and Denton and they are not cheap as well. All three areas do have some lower end areas, but overall, they are not cheap.
Funny, just the other day I was talking with someone about ''urban'' vs suburban cities. I threw an idea out that I thought cities like Dallas and LA offer a higher level of freedom due to people using cars to go anywhere anytime the wished. Freedom such as what an automobile offers is a very American value.
I've the chance to live and work in downtown SF. But the major thing I keep thinking about is that shifting from my own personal car to public transit isn't going to be comfortable. However, the reverse is well recieved. It's almost like the market will be there for high end public transit. The current form is not desirable to the mass of America.
That tells us a key clue as to why Dallas, Houston and LA don't look like NYC. IMHO it has to do with the notion of what it means to be a modern American. And that is go anywhere, anytime - even if all I really do is sit in traffic and then go out to dinner.
Since when is Frisco, Arlington, and Denton cheap! I live in a very nice house in Frisco and it is not cheap! I am also very familiar with Arlington and Denton and they are not cheap as well. All three areas do have some lower end areas, but overall, they are not cheap.
It's all relative I suppose. 100k in Frisco goes a long way. 100k in Highland Park, not so much.
It's all relative I suppose. 100k in Frisco goes a long way. 100k in Highland Park, not so much.
yea but I think its people like us Californians that consider Dallas cheap...compared to where we live...your towns are like discount stores for our house buying ambitions
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That theroy was debunked sometime in the 70s, but it didn't slow down the sprawl that was already underway.
