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Dayton's REAL problems for many years in the fairly RECENT past were (and probably still are) based on the fact that there were (are) no doctors and there were (are) no lawyers. There were (are) many, many people who have passed the state tests to practice same, but people don't get help. And, for that matter, these days there probably are no computer technicians.
My dad was a small businessman based on a trade he knew well. He did not know the ins and outs of such things as tax forms, contracts, lease arrangements and other legal matters. Fortunately for us there was an ethnic lawyer who saw the opportunity to base a practice on people like us.
My dad's lawyer didn't get rich. He couldn't handle everything perfectly. For a while he even worked for the county, but for all my life, until I was nearly 50 years old, there was a lawyer to call for a "this sounds okay" if someone stuck a contract under my nose or some such thing.
When he was too incapacitated to be called any more, I spent three months studying the telephone book looking for a replacement. I didn't want a lawyer that was part of a law firm. I wanted one that could work out of a car or in a living room, so if two or more lawyers listed the same address, I scratched them off. A surprising number listed a county address (they worked for the prosecutor's office). Also scratched off was anyone who listed a far out suburban address -- they couldn't be that familiar with the problems of city people -- and anyone who was known to have taken a political route, like city commission candidates.
People get out of law school and take a job with a company as a corporate lawyer or run for political office (it's a relatively honest income), and I can't blame them because establishing a law practice would be a long-drawn out thing, but private practice attorney is what's missing from the social order. Also doctor. And, for that matter, maybe plumber and car mechanic.
As someone who's in law school, I think I'm uniquely qualified to answer this question.
There are countless factors working against being a solo attorney, almost all of which are economic or logistical. All of that said, a significant plurality of all lawyers in Ohio are either practicing solo, or sharing space with other solo attorney's in the same office block.
1) It's statistically proven that the larger the firm, the more money the attorney makes. Page 13 of the report (which is labeled as Page 12 on the report itself; but 13 on the reader). The median income of solo attorneys working from home was only $40,000. If they had an office, it was $70,000. If they were an associate in a firm with 8+ partners, median income rises to $95,000. If they made partner in said larger firm, their income went up to $182,500.
1a) $40,000 a year isn't jack squat for many law grads facing an average of $125,000 in student loans accruing at 6.8%. 41% of solo attorneys working out of the house made less than $30,000. Page 14. Especially since the private sector at that low pay doesn't include the bonus of public sector loan forgiveness.
2) Name recognition, or lack thereof. You said yourself that you went through the yellow pages, looking for an attorney, a while back. I suggest looking again. How does a solo attorney make a name for himself among the 30+ pages of yellow page advertisements? Again, zero chance unless he puts his name on a bigger firm that actually is known. Go back to reason #1a to see why the new attorney quite frankly can't afford to do otherwise.
3) Logistics. The costs of a small practice - health insurance, malpractice insurance, renting an office space, software/hardware, research tools (Westlaw and Lexis are ridiculously expensive, Casemaker a bit less so) are all an order of magnitude more expensive for an individual attorney to maintain than a larger organization with buying power in numbers. Making it extremely expensive for the little guy to provide the same level of service as a larger group.
4) I didn't mention the public sector, which is a semi-viable option - but it's most certainly not what the law grad your parents expected you to be. The Montgomery County prosecutor's office hasn't seen a raise since 2008, and the assistant prosecutor's salary is $46,000.
That said, most state/local employees have practices on the side to make more money. But given that they have regular full-time jobs, I wouldn't be surprised if they're working on their private practices in a lackadaisical fashion - and not making gangbusters. (I don't know for sure - but I do know there's only so many hours in a day.)
I wouldn't automatically scratch off an attorney just because they've got a suburban address. I know that I, for one, would prefer to locate my future practice in Beavercreek or a township to avoid city taxes.
That doesn't make me ignorant of city life and city issues. I just don't want 2.5% of my limited income being spirited away to City Hall.
Addendum: I'm graduating with a tiny fraction of that debt (maybe $20,000 as opposed to the mainstream of $125,000+ which in my anecdotal experience is actually lowballing it) - thus leaving the solo practice/public sector options open to me. But I'm in a tiny, tiny minority.
Last edited by hensleya1; 10-14-2012 at 05:22 PM..
Location: A voice of truth, shouted down by fools.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CarpathianPeasant
Okay, Hensleya1, and anyone else interested....
Dayton's REAL problems for many years in the fairly RECENT past were (and probably still are) based on the fact that there were (are) no doctors and there were (are) no lawyers. There were (are) many, many people who have passed the state tests to practice same, but people don't get help. And, for that matter, these days there probably are no computer technicians.
... but private practice attorney is what's missing from the social order. Also doctor. And, for that matter, maybe plumber and car mechanic.
C.P., I really don't get your point. You're saying that there are few/no independent professionals in certain categories inside the Dayton limits?
hensleya1 made an excellent point. In short, the biggest problem facing any independent professional starting a practice is basically marketing - otherwise known as simple visibility.
You don't see that many established independents (doctors or lawyers or computer techs or others) because it's harder than hell to establish a client base in order to stay in business. You have to run on empty for 6 months to 2 years building a practice.
Being an independent in any field today amounts to going against the current because consumers today trust big brand names, like the attorneys who advertise on TV constantly. "Better Call Saul" is only a TV thing.
It's truly a chicken and egg situation. This is absolutely not a Dayton-specific problem.
I agree that the private practice doctor and independent lawyer are both going the way of the dodo. In the instance of doctors, it's our terminally fracked-up US health care system to blame - a doctor today has to interface with extremely complex medical IT data standards for information interchange - and that costs money and requires craploads of training and technical support. Most GP doctors today are members of networks like TriHealth in Cincinnati and others because being in private practice is simply out of reach due to startup and ongoing costs.
Lastly, if you say that lack of these occupations/professionals is "Dayton's REAL problem" - it's not - the lack of independent professionals is a symptom of a dying city. There's no money here. Money comes from consumers first and foremost. Consumers in Dayton have been sliding downward in spending power for 30+ years.
As someone who's in law school, I think I'm uniquely qualified to answer this question.
There are countless factors working against being a solo attorney, almost all of which are economic or logistical. All of that said, a significant plurality of all lawyers in Ohio are either practicing solo, or sharing space with other solo attorney's in the same office block.
1) It's statistically proven that the larger the firm, the more money the attorney makes. Page 13 of the report (which is labeled as Page 12 on the report itself; but 13 on the reader). The median income of solo attorneys working from home was only $40,000. If they had an office, it was $70,000. If they were an associate in a firm with 8+ partners, median income rises to $95,000. If they made partner in said larger firm, their income went up to $182,500.
1a) $40,000 a year isn't jack squat for many law grads facing an average of $125,000 in student loans accruing at 6.8%. 41% of solo attorneys working out of the house made less than $30,000. Page 14. Especially since the private sector at that low pay doesn't include the bonus of public sector loan forgiveness.
2) Name recognition, or lack thereof. You said yourself that you went through the yellow pages, looking for an attorney, a while back. I suggest looking again. How does a solo attorney make a name for himself among the 30+ pages of yellow page advertisements? Again, zero chance unless he puts his name on a bigger firm that actually is known. Go back to reason #1a to see why the new attorney quite frankly can't afford to do otherwise.
3) Logistics. The costs of a small practice - health insurance, malpractice insurance, renting an office space, software/hardware, research tools (Westlaw and Lexis are ridiculously expensive, Casemaker a bit less so) are all an order of magnitude more expensive for an individual attorney to maintain than a larger organization with buying power in numbers. Making it extremely expensive for the little guy to provide the same level of service as a larger group.
4) I didn't mention the public sector, which is a semi-viable option - but it's most certainly not what the law grad your parents expected you to be. The Montgomery County prosecutor's office hasn't seen a raise since 2008, and the assistant prosecutor's salary is $46,000.
That said, most state/local employees have practices on the side to make more money. But given that they have regular full-time jobs, I wouldn't be surprised if they're working on their private practices in a lackadaisical fashion - and not making gangbusters. (I don't know for sure - but I do know there's only so many hours in a day.)
I wouldn't automatically scratch off an attorney just because they've got a suburban address. I know that I, for one, would prefer to locate my future practice in Beavercreek or a township to avoid city taxes.
That doesn't make me ignorant of city life and city issues. I just don't want 2.5% of my limited income being spirited away to City Hall.
Addendum: I'm graduating with a tiny fraction of that debt (maybe $20,000 as opposed to the mainstream of $125,000+ which in my anecdotal experience is actually lowballing it) - thus leaving the solo practice/public sector options open to me. But I'm in a tiny, tiny minority.
Interesting posting.
Let's say you decide to share an office with someone and even limit it by contract to the overall cost of same. Let us also say I have a legitmate grievance against someone that has not been resolved by non-legal means, and I come to see you for legal representation. Let us lastly say that "someone" turns out to be an established client of your law partner.
C.P., I really don't get your point. You're saying that there are few/no independent professionals in certain categories inside the Dayton limits?
hensleya1 made an excellent point. In short, the biggest problem facing any independent professional starting a practice is basically marketing - otherwise known as simple visibility.
You don't see that many established independents (doctors or lawyers or computer techs or others) because it's harder than hell to establish a client base in order to stay in business. You have to run on empty for 6 months to 2 years building a practice.
Being an independent in any field today amounts to going against the current because consumers today trust big brand names, like the attorneys who advertise on TV constantly. "Better Call Saul" is only a TV thing.
It's truly a chicken and egg situation. This is absolutely not a Dayton-specific problem.
I agree that the private practice doctor and independent lawyer are both going the way of the dodo. In the instance of doctors, it's our terminally fracked-up US health care system to blame - a doctor today has to interface with extremely complex medical IT data standards for information interchange - and that costs money and requires craploads of training and technical support. Most GP doctors today are members of networks like TriHealth in Cincinnati and others because being in private practice is simply out of reach due to startup and ongoing costs.
Lastly, if you say that lack of these occupations/professionals is "Dayton's REAL problem" - it's not - the lack of independent professionals is a symptom of a dying city. There's no money here. Money comes from consumers first and foremost. Consumers in Dayton have been sliding downward in spending power for 30+ years.
.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohioan58
C.P., I really don't get your point. You're saying that there are few/no independent professionals in certain categories inside the Dayton limits?
...there are few/no independent professionals.... PERIOD. We just happen to be talking about Dayton.
Small points of disagreement: it takes a minimum of five years (not one or two) to establish a business and in some cases more than that. And, the lack of independent professionals is the sign of a shifting social order, not a symptom of a dying city.
Lastly, I think you kind of skimmed over at least my last paragraph.
Location: A voice of truth, shouted down by fools.
1,086 posts, read 2,703,638 times
Reputation: 937
I read your entire post, your family lawyer who passed and your challenges in finding someone to take on some of that role, etc.
I gave bare minimum time frames. I agree that it is often longer to establish a practice.
YES, private practice is a rare thing for professionals in any category today. I am familiar with this milieu. I am a creative freelancer and I know that getting rolling is tough.
I still don't get why lack of independent professionals is a uniquely Dayton problem. I insist that it's more a general society thing than a Dayton specific thing. In general, almost all business is like fast food - consumers don't trust independents who may be high quality but may also vary in delivery. They prefer to deal with a mediocre known quantity, a "franchise".
IE: most people today would rather pay a fee to a legal aid hotline (pre paid legal services) than go to the trouble of scouting a competent independent lawyer. Same goes for doctors - consumers tend to be more comfortable with big brand names like Kettering Health Network than private practitioners.
IE: most people today would rather pay a fee to a legal aid hotline (pre paid legal services) than go to the trouble of scouting a competent independent lawyer. Same goes for doctors - consumers tend to be more comfortable with big brand names like Kettering Health Network than private practitioners.
I used prepaid legal for a while. For some reason paying $40.00 a month and writing it off on my taxes was preferable to hiring someone when the time came. For me it seemed more economical paying a little each month as a legal insurance plan. I think the reality is I actually would have been better off not using them at all and dealing with a lawyer when I needed one.
You artificially restricted your list. There were plenty of people who could fit the bill, but you chose to write them off based on your own personal biases. That doesn't create a crisis for everyone else.
Let's say you decide to share an office with someone and even limit it by contract to the overall cost of same. Let us also say I have a legitmate grievance against someone that has not been resolved by non-legal means, and I come to see you for legal representation. Let us lastly say that "someone" turns out to be an established client of your law partner.
What's going to happen?
.
Hi CarpathianPeasant--
Unless there's a no-complete clause inserted in the space sharing agreement, I don't see any ethical or legal issues with it. However, I wouldn't be surprised if the lawyer in question decides to withdraw himself from the case and refund your retainer's fee if he does realize there's a significant conflict of interest. Because let's face it, two lawyers having at each other in the same office building isn't going to last long, it'd rip up any gentleman's agreement they may have had in no time.
To be sure, I'd run the question by the bar association - because I'm not a hundred percent on how that would turn out, either.
Unless there's a no-complete clause inserted in the space sharing agreement, I don't see any ethical or legal issues with it. However, I wouldn't be surprised if the lawyer in question decides to withdraw himself from the case and refund your retainer's fee if he does realize there's a significant conflict of interest. Because let's face it, two lawyers having at each other in the same office building isn't going to last long, it'd rip up any gentleman's agreement they may have had in no time.
To be sure, I'd run the question by the bar association - because I'm not a hundred percent on how that would turn out, either.
I'm glad you see the problem
Now consider it to be a very large law firm backing a large corporation or institution v. a lone citizen victim.
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