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[quote=crys5683;16828997]Bradburn, so the people you know that moved from highlands, wash park, etc. love it? I dont want to regret leaving this area. I do think the pros of a community and getting my little one plugged in would outway the local restaurants and parks we frequent. I just want to be sure. QUOTE]
Offhand, I can think of at least 15 couples I know in here that have moved from the Highlands neighborhood. All of the couples have young kids (under age 10) and without exception they love it here. Most of them moved because of school concerns--we have excellent schools here and while the elementary is a little crowded I would say (class sizes of 19-22 for Kinder, 25-27 for grades 1-5) it's overall not really a concern. There are also about a zillion choices for schools up here you can choice into including a magnet gifted school, an arts school a STEM school (science technology engineering math), etc.. (the list goes on and on). We have two excellent daycare centers also in the neighborhood itself (Montessori and Goddard).
Other couples who moved I know did so because they wanted a new house with more room and concerns about crime, but still wanted to live in a walkable neighborhood with character. And they wanted to be closer to the mountains--we have an excellent view from here, especially from the Dry Creek Open Space which we directly border on our south side (miles of trails, is awesome).
You will get more house for the money in Bradburn, our prices run about 20-50K lower than Stapleton for a similar house, but we are farther away from downtown (is about 30 minute drive in rush hour). Boulder is close though, about 20 minutes. If you had to reguarly drive south of downtown Denver, I would not recommend Bradburn as the commute is horrible (several of my neighbors do do it, but they really hate it).
One of the main differences between Bradburn and Stapleton is size. Stapleton is HUGE to me and I can get lost easily in there. Bradburn is much, much smaller and is much cozier. It's really like a small village--everyone knows each other and we have a million neighborhood events all the time. I think socializing in here is essentially effortless as people are out all the time, on their porches, walking, in the parks, etc.. This is especially great with kids as they can just go out the front door and have playmates right there, you don't have to usually schedule playdates (although people do) for your kids to have someone to play with. This goes for adults too. I interact with neighbors every day and attend a neighborhood function probably about 3-4 times a month (more in the summer as we have park parties/movies nights every weekend).
Now, there is a potential downside to all this community closeness: People will know your business. A pin does not drop in here without everyone knowing. If you mention something to one person, the whole neighborhood will know in short order. This personally does not bother me at all, but with someone who was more private I could see this as being annoying for them. It does really help with the kids though as everyone has eyes on them and it also helps with crime as you can imagine.
Prices in here have held up fairly well, and houses are selling although some sell in like 2 weeks and others can take 12 months! I think a prior poster made a good point that buying could be a better deal than renting depending on the specifics of the situation, so I wouldn't rule out buying.
The townhomes are lovely but I do think you have to make more of an effort to socialize if you live in one, mostly because they don't have front porches which really facilitates interactions in my opinion.
I don't understand this logic. If you had bought five years ago during the peak of the housing bubble and were trying to sell now you would be in trouble. We bought recently knowing we would be selling in 2-3 years. It is all a matter of where you want to keep your money invested. I wanted out of the stock market for many obvious reasons and it worked out financially that interest payments on our mortgage would be less than our rent. so even if our house does not appreciate over the next 3 years we should still come out ahead. buying a house is a personal financial decision and the hard and fast "5 year rule" (which I have heard from many people) does not make sense imo.
This is dragging it way off topic, but you are overlooking quite a few costs. Loan origination / closing costs, insurance, maintenance and upkeep, water and other utilities that are often rolled into the cost of a rental, time invested in maintenance, property taxes, realtor costs when selling. All of these things make "purchasing" a home a losing scenario for a long period of time in all but the best of appreciation scenarios which are not likely to ever happen again, at least in Denver unless they find a bunch of oil.
This is dragging it way off topic, but you are overlooking quite a few costs. Loan origination / closing costs, insurance, maintenance and upkeep, water and other utilities that are often rolled into the cost of a rental, time invested in maintenance, property taxes, realtor costs when selling. All of these things make "purchasing" a home a losing scenario for a long period of time in all but the best of appreciation scenarios which are not likely to ever happen again, at least in Denver unless they find a bunch of oil.
Loan/Closing costs ~ negotiate to have the seller pay those, easily done
Insurance ~ hope you're still paying that while renting! With vehicles on the same policy, it's roughly $10/month more for Owning a home vs. renting.
Water/utilities ~ I've only ever had trash rolled into a rental price, all the rest I still get to pay, so that's a wash.
Even with property taxes, insurance and escrow rolled into my mortgage, I'm still paying less per month to live in a nice 4 bed/2 bath house with a 3 car garage (I'm a mechanic, like having space to work) than I did for a 1bed/1bath apartment with a 1-car rental garage.
Yes, there's maintenance costs and Realtor fees when selling (but again, those can be negotiated, the last house I sold in 2008 I only paid 3% towards Realtor fees and half the closing costs). On that house, I bought in 2005, sold in 2008 and got what I had into the property (purchase price + all improvements), all while paying less per month vs renting and not having to deal with moron neighbors in an apartment, or lazy landlords for a home (had one who didn't pay taxes and they cut the water to the house ~ gee, thanks).
There are clearly 2 mentalities, but I can't begin to understand why anyone would spend more money per month with the GUARANTEE to not get any of it back vs. spending less money per month with the possability of living for the cost of utilities/insurance only once sold. Maybe it's the risk of losing more money by making bad choices. I wonder if there's any correlation between renters/home owners and people who buy new vehicles vs used (I'll never buy new, can't stomach the instant devaluation that comes with signing a vehicle into my name not to mention that nagging monthly payment). I know some people can't afford to buy, but we're not talking about those folks.
For the OP, do your homework and you could very easily buy now, sell in 3 years and not "lose" one penny. I'm not sure it can be done easily in the $400k+ market (I researched and bought in the under $250k market, which doesn't seem to have any issues for selling), but with a little knowledge, it might be possible. With chance there's potential risk, but also potential reward. Education (or lack there-of) will sway the needle towards one or the other more than any other factor.
Loan/Closing costs ~ negotiate to have the seller pay those, easily done
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Yes, there's maintenance costs and Realtor fees when selling (but again, those can be negotiated, the last house I sold in 2008 I only paid 3% towards Realtor fees and half the closing costs).
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There are clearly 2 mentalities, but I can't begin to understand why anyone would spend more money per month with the GUARANTEE to not get any of it back vs. spending less money per month with the possability of living for the cost of utilities/insurance only once sold.
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I'm not sure it can be done easily in the $400k+ market (I researched and bought in the under $250k market, which doesn't seem to have any issues for selling), but with a little knowledge, it might be possible. With chance there's potential risk, but also potential reward. Education (or lack there-of) will sway the needle towards one or the other more than any other factor.
I think it is going to be hard to find a home in Stapleton for less than $325k. So assuming that this person gets the same deal as you:
-paid half closing cost on buying (1/2 of 3%)= 4850
-paid 3% real estate fees on selling = (3%) = 9750
-paid half closing cost on selling (1/2 of 3%)= 4850
so for 36 months, you're putting out close to $20k right there - and that seems pretty conservative.
I have to imagine property taxes in Stapleton have to be over $2k a year . If you can't put 20% down ($65k), you're looking at Private Mortgage Insurance or a higher rate 2nd mortgage.
Now, I know the numbers can work out for buying and that several of the ownership costs are transfered to renter. However, that is a tremendous amount of money for someone to put on the line if their husband might get transfered back to Texas in 36 months or less.
My guess is you would be better renting if your time horizon is 3 years. It could payoff to buy, but you will assume more risk and put down more money upfront.
We recently obtained a 7/1 at 2.5% with one point paid, but rates have gone up a bit and we have excellent credit scores so can get a good rate. So, your mileage may very.
However, the loan plus taxes and insurance will be $800 less than the comparable rental we were considering without even considering the additional tax advantages to us. We will be staying 3-5 years. If we come anywhere near break even, we will consider ourselves way ahead. Granted, our down payment takes money out of the market, but that isn't guaranteed to make us money and we could just as easily lose it.
FWIW -- I am not a fan of Stapleton. Reminds me of Stepford and I don't see a value when there is land builders can keep building on to compete against resales. But, I can see the advantages to families with young children. I don't like Wash Park either - over priced old homes on crowded, small roads. We choose University Park, which is working for us but might not fit the needs of many.
Loan/Closing costs ~ negotiate to have the seller pay those, easily done
Not so easily done even in a bad market, and if it is possible on one end, figure on it happening to you when you sell.
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Insurance ~ hope you're still paying that while renting! With vehicles on the same policy, it's roughly $10/month more for Owning a home vs. renting.
This number varies widely. We paid < 10 percent of what we pay in home owners while renting. This makes sense, their liability was maybe 40k worth of stuff versus 6-700k.
Movementarian lays out some good numbers. I'm not saying no one should buy a house in the short term, I'm only saying that the odds are you are not going to break even versus renting for a very long time economically.
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I don't see a value when there is land builders can keep building on to compete against resales.
Okay but what do you think happened once upon a time in your neighborhood? At some point everything was built and had newer inventory being built around it. The prices in Stapleton are more immune to new inventory than houses further out simply because they sit on land within the city and are for the most part the only new inventory you are going to see in the city for some time to come Further out there will always be another golf course with houses 1/2 a mile away for the same or less money.
What I have noticed about Stapleton this year is that most of the inventory built has been in cheaper condos and smaller houses in the sub 420 range versus a few years ago when there was a lot of inventory in the 550-1 million range. It is good that builders can and have responded to the market and have the space to do that, diversity within any areas is also a good thing, otherwise you end up with another Washington Park where everyone works for the same company, drives the same car and has the same kids.
You have received some great information so far! Having just been in a relocation scenario in moving here, another possibility to consider to having to maintain dual residences while you wait for your house to sell. We had to do that for 9 months and it ate into our savings. Also, is the job that might take you back to TX the type of job where you can negotiate home buy out or transition assistance as part of the job? Also might want to consult with a tax advisor, with a mortgage interest deduction factored in, it might drop you into the lower tax bracket. Lots of factors to consider.
Wow, lots of information to consider. Thanks for taking the time to give me some your thoughts / opinions. I hadn't thought about the mortgage interest dropping us into a lower tax bracket. We will definitely be educating ourselves as much as possible before making a decision to rent or buy. We currently own a rental home in Texas and it has been a good experience so far. We moved fairly quickly and didn't want to sit on it for months waiting for it to sell. (We couldn't have afforded that at the time either).
Overall the idea of the Stapleton area is really growing on me, which is still hard to believe. I really like the University park area as well, KC. It seems like inventory in that area as well as Platt Park and Wash Park are fairly low ... plus many of the homes need some work and are still priced at 400-500 K. That's the only downfall for us. We really dont want to spend our weekends remodeling! We are usually in Breckendridge every weekend enjoying the snow and mountains, something we definitely aren't used to being from Texas.
I like the idea of Bradburn quite a bit. Seems like it would be really easy to plug in and I love the thought of having other kids right in the neighborhood. I am not the kind of mom to schedule play dates. Id love for her to be able to go outside and make friends and play! My husband travels to Boulder several times a week, but is also in the city every day. I also think where we are now is quite a bit closer to Breckenridge (where my brother in law lives) so thats a major factor.
It seems like we could possibly get a great price on a resale since there are new builds and the resale market isn't so hot right now. We'll just have to see.
The rental market here in Denver seems strong. For what we pay in rent now (in a home that really needs some work) we could have a comparable mortgage for a much nicer home. That and the tax advantages of owning are our main motivating factors, but we do see the risk involved. Such a big decision!
I work at Stapleton and with lots of Stapleton residents, renters and homeowners. In 5 years, I have only spoken to one person who did not love it! Everything is right there, new recreation center to open in January, restaurants, coffee shops, parks, fountains, pools, dog park, green space and great homes. A new library will be built shortly. The schools are fabulous, my grandchildren attend Bill Robert's and we are very pleased, Denver School of Science and Technology is the Best Denver Public School! The community is full of young families and there are always family activities going on. You would be 20 minutes to DIA, 10-15 minutes to DT and Cherry Creek. I believe you would love this community and I would be happy to give you names of residents that you can talk with.
Regards,
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