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[Note: Unfortunately my responses to the first three questions got cut off...I've edited in some simplified versions]
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I have a love / hate relationship with Denver. I just moved to Denver last summer from LA and there were many negative surprises moving here!
Do tell...
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1) The city is extremely small. For as much as Denver is hyped up, you discover how small of a city it actually is. I find that Denverites and Coloradans in general talk about Denver as if it were on par with much larger, more sophisticated cities. Denver is a small town. There also seems to be an unhealthy obsession here with Seattle. I have no idea where that comes from.
Outsiders compare us to Seattle. We don't compare ourselves to anyone but ourselves. We are not a small town. Monument is a small town. We are an average sized city. We are not a cosmopolitan mecca, but nor are we unsophisticated.
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2) Too dry and too brown! I cannot drive around here without feeling thirsty. Everything looks so dried out, dead, and lifeless here. LA would go 6 months without rain... but at least most all trees stay green all year round. I have heard from long-timers that things don't start greening up around here until almost June. Oh joy! Three more months of brown, lifeless prairie to stare at. It would be nice if we could get some snow, but apparently that's too much to ask for too!
Really wish I hadn't lost this response. Long story short, you're missing out on a lot of natural beauty here. Lived in deserts and high plains most of my life, and there is something amazing about how tenacious life is in such places. You're missing the forest for the trees. We'll get our snow.
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3) Standoffish people. I feel an odd coldness emanating from people here that I have never felt before. It's as if everyone takes themselves too seriously and can't be bothered being friendly. People here do not hold the elevator at work even if they see me rushing toward it, give loads of attitude with customer service as if they're too good to hold their job, and rarely smile in general. LA is certainly not a bastion of friendliness, but people still extend common courtesy and acknowledge your existence.
I keep hearing things like this but I don't see it. That said, I mostly hear this from people who live in the suburbs. Denverites work hard, and then they play hard. Then they relax, and sometimes that makes them quieter, or less social to people they don't know. A lot of people are just more private. Consider where you are and what attracted so many people to Colorado! That said, if I take the initiative, I have a very good success rate meeting new people.
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4) Horrible freeway system and horrible drivers! The freeway system here is incredibly outdated. I have heard that massive improvements have been made to sections of the 25 through Denver. If that's the case, I can't imagine what the freeway was like before the work was done!
The freeways are way too narrow and need to be widened to at least 5 to 7 lanes per side on the 25 from Castle Rock to Westminster and on the 70 from Aurora to Golden. It is so annoying getting backed up on the 25 going through Thornton weekday and weekend. There is no excuse.
Drivers here are my biggest pet peeve about Denver! The horrible merging, the left lane hogging, the general lethargic pace, the cutting off, the road rage, the red light running, the consistent failing to yield... it's all too much. I often laugh with my friends here that there would be no traffic in Denver if drivers here had some skill. I don't know how I can flow down the 10 or the 405 in LA in heavy traffic doing 70 or 75 without having to constantly stomp on my brakes, but one minute here I'm stopped and the next minute I'm doing 50, only to be slowed down to 5 again. It makes no sense.
You actually got to 70 on the 405?
Seriously. There are other threads on this one so I won't go in depth, but suffice it to say that I think outsiders are bringing their bad driving attitudes with them, and it usually has to do with wanting to go too fast. This is not a fast town. It doesn't need to be a fast town. Relax. Enjoy the mountains. Leave a little early. Take an alternate route. Try public transit or car pooling. Maybe bring a bike. After all, we aren't L.A. or Seattle.
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5) Middle-America feel. Denver does not feel like part of the west. There are too many place in the metro area that feel like "Anywhere, USA." The architecture is bland (including most homes), the downtown is overly corporate, the restaurants are boring and serve food that you could find in Des Moines, the clubs are a joke, the gays here aren't as fabulous and fun as the gays from back home, there is absolutely no diversity, etc., etc....
I can't speak for the gays. I see plenty of diversity in Denver proper. The suburbs may be less diverse, but since when is that not the case. And our restaurants are a joke? We aren't top of the culinary heap, by any means, but we're not slouches, either. Colfax, Federal and Broadway have TONS of locally owned, independent eateries that are very good. That doesn't even include some of our hidden secrets in Lodo, the CPV, Five Points, Highlands, Gaylord, Pearl Street, etc...
Anywhere U.S.A? Again, we're not top of the heap, but we have plenty of beautiful and varied homes. Have you lived in Phoenix? Las Vegas? Orange County? San Diego? Welcome to Anywhere, U.S.A. I'm not even sure what this "Middle America feel" is that you're talking about, but we are a city that sits on the cusp of the Great Plains and the Wild West. We're a city of trains and finance and mountains and plains and people from all walks of life. America is homogenized. Change it, or deal with it.
Regarding the overly corporate downtown...
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6) Poor shopping. Where is my IKEA? Where is my Trader Joes and BevMo!? Where is my Barneys or Gucci? It's so baffling to me that an area that touts itself as being a major city doesn't have these staples. Even Salt Lake has an IKEA!
Yes, well, we're overly corporate, so...
Of course, Centennial is getting an IKEA, and rumors of Trader Joes abound, but I don't visit L.A. and ask "Where's my BeauJos! Whither my Argonaut or Wallaby's?" Barney's? Gucci? STAPLES? Time to load up the truck and move to Beverly...Hills, that is.
For the record, there is quite a bit of non-corporate life downtown if you know where to look, but you don't seem to have looked. We are a city that loves our locals...our local beers, our local stores, our local architecture...and it wasn't always this way, but we're a city that's working on that. We have a train culture, and a morbid sense of humor, and an adventure culture, but that sun slips below the peaks pushing us into darkness a little earlier than most cities in the country, and that puts people back inside, drinking their Great Divide or Stranahans, hanging with friends in bars and pubs and grills...we have unpredictable weather and we have busy lives. We try to do what we can, but this place is changing very quickly, and a lot of Denverites, and indeed Coloradans, want to hold on to some of those qualities that brought them here in the first place...the dry and arid air, the majestic mountains, the sports culture, our willingness not to let politics completely divide us.
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I am here for work, but I need to get back to a more vibrant area. Denver is a great city for people with families, older people, or just low-key people who dislike a lot of social interaction.
I will move away as soon as I am able!
Get thyself to Silverlake, Santa Monica or West Hollywood, my friend. Go west, young man. I fit none of your descriptions above, and I love it here. I'm getting more involved in the local music scene (we have a good local electronic scene here, which I'm only just discovering), have made friends at pubs across town, love the brews, the parks, the free days, the proximity of all that geology, wildlife and adventure...Clearly you need a little less outside and a little more "Gucci." Don't let the Chinooks hit you on the way out.
Last edited by zenkonami; 02-24-2011 at 10:02 PM..
Reason: Responses cut off.
[Note: Unfortunately my responses to the first three questions got cut off...I've edited in some simplified versions]
Do tell...
I think I have!
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Originally Posted by zenkonami
Outsiders compare us to Seattle. We don't compare ourselves to anyone but ourselves. We are not a small town. Monument is a small town. We are an average sized city. We are not a cosmopolitan mecca, but nor are we unsophisticated.
It's all subjective, really. It's clear that you have been in Denver for a very long time using the term "outsider." Denver is so isolated that it feels like a huge city compared to anything else within a 500 mile radius. 600,000 people is a small town in my view. Long Beach isn't much smaller than Denver.
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Originally Posted by zenkonami
Really wish I hadn't lost this response. Long story short, you're missing out on a lot of natural beauty here. Lived in deserts and high plains most of my life, and there is something amazing about how tenacious life is in such places. You're missing the forest for the trees. We'll get our snow.
Denver does not have natural beauty. It's built up with a bunch of bland homes, anywhere high rises, and run down looking stores. The natural beauty starts in Golden heading westward!
I am from LA, so I know about dry climates and deserts. Deserts are scenic wonders compared to the dried out grass and bare trees that I have been forced to contend with for the past 5 months!
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Originally Posted by zenkonami
I keep hearing things like this but I don't see it. That said, I mostly hear this from people who live in the suburbs. Denverites work hard, and then they play hard. Then they relax, and sometimes that makes them quieter, or less social to people they don't know. A lot of people are just more private. Consider where you are and what attracted so many people to Colorado! That said, if I take the initiative, I have a very good success rate meeting new people.
Most Denverites don't. I think after you live here for a certain amount of time you start to take all the negatives of Denver as being "normal" and "not unique to Denver," when in fact they're not normal at all!
I am into outdoor things like almost everyone else here is, but I need people who are into more urbane activities. Endless conversations about how powdery the snow was this weekend in the mountains are not engaging.
Being reserved, super anti-social, and snooty does not equal being relaxed. It is a horrible trait.
I don't live in the suburbs and actually despise 90 percent of them. The suburbs here are mind-numbingly boring and depressing. They're filled with anywhere homes found on brown, treeless prairies with the smell of cattle manure wafting through every moment the wind blows. How is that attractive? This only adds to the cowtowniness of Denver.
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Originally Posted by zenkonami
You actually got to 70 on the 405?
Seriously. There are other threads on this one so I won't go in depth, but suffice it to say that I think outsiders are bringing their bad driving attitudes with them, and it usually has to do with wanting to go too fast. This is not a fast town. It doesn't need to be a fast town. Relax. Enjoy the mountains. Leave a little early. Take an alternate route. Try public transit or car pooling. Maybe bring a bike. After all, we aren't L.A. or Seattle.
Yes, there have been times that I have gone 70 on the 405. There are many times where traffic is flowing slower, but it is flowing! The only time where traffic is truly stop and go is when there is an accident or construction! I don't have to smash on brake pedal to the point where I feel that I'm on the verge on kicking out the floorboard of my car and I don't have to contend with people cutting in front of me who then travel half the speed I was going only to have to flip their brights on at me when I have a chance to pass them!
How you contend that this is a large city, but not a fast "town" is confusing. Sounds like a identity crisis to me!
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Originally Posted by zenkonami
I can't speak for the gays. I see plenty of diversity in Denver proper. The suburbs may be less diverse, but since when is that not the case. And our restaurants are a joke? We aren't top of the culinary heap, by any means, but we're not slouches, either. Colfax, Federal and Broadway have TONS of locally owned, independent eateries that are very good. That doesn't even include some of our hidden secrets in Lodo, the CPV, Five Points, Highlands, Gaylord, Pearl Street, etc...
Again, the fact you find Denver diverse is very telling of how long you've lived here. I am from LA and Denver to me is about as colorful as a can of white paint. Sure there is a sprinkling of blacks and Asians. Other than that, this place is white and Mexican. That is it. The Mexicans here even seem more bland than the Mexicans in LA.
The restaurants here a deplorable. End of story. One meal at Katsuya on Hollywood Blvd. would change any positive impression you have of Denver's "cuisine." I find the Mexican food here to be watery and tasteless, the sushi isn't fresh, and the Indian food is just bland and nauseating.
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Originally Posted by zenkonami
Anywhere U.S.A? Again, we're not top of the heap, but we have plenty of beautiful and varied homes. Have you lived in Phoenix? Las Vegas? Orange County? San Diego? Welcome to Anywhere, U.S.A. I'm not even sure what this "Middle America feel" is that you're talking about, but we are a city that sits on the cusp of the Great Plains and the Wild West. We're a W
Regarding the overly corporate downtown...
The homes here are bland and dreadful. At least the homes in Phoenix and Las Vegas have tile roofs providing a unique, regional flavor! The homes here could be in Indianapolis, Kansas City, Fargo.... I just get so bored driving around here.
This place feels like the Midwest. From the landscape, to speech patterns (what in the world is "pop"), to the corporate feel of everything... It's just so uninteresting and uninspiring.
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Originally Posted by zenkonami
Yes, well, we're overly corporate, so...
I'm glad we agree!
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Originally Posted by zenkonami
Of course, Centennial is getting an IKEA, and rumors of Trader Joes abound, but I don't visit L.A. and ask "Where's my BeauJos! Whither my Argonaut or Wallaby's?" Barney's? Gucci? STAPLES? Time to load up the truck and move to Beverly...Hills, that is.
Why is Centennial JUST getting an IKEA? IKEA has been in this country from almost 30 years. Why has it taken 30 years for IKEA to reach here? Are we just that isolated from the rest of the country? It sure feels like it! The stores I listed cover multiple states and are coveted by the masses. Why would anyone want BeauJo's in LA?
I am used to my Barney's and Gucci! This area can't even support its Saks. Am I just supposed to shop at Macy's for "fashions" that everyone else around here is wearing? How are people supposed to look fabulous with so few upscale stores? It's so baffling to me.
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Originally Posted by zenkonami
For the record, there is quite a bit of non-corporate life downtown if you know where to look, but you don't seem to have looked. We are a city that loves our locals...our local beers, our local stores, our local architecture...and it wasn't always this way, but we're a city that's working on that. We have a train culture, and a morbid sense of humor, and an adventure culture, but that sun slips below the peaks pushing us into darkness a little earlier than most cities in the country, and that puts people back inside, drinking their Great Divide or Stranahans, hanging with friends in bars and pubs and grills...we have unpredictable weather and we have busy lives. We try to do what we can, but this place is changing very quickly, and a lot of Denverites, and indeed Coloradans, want to hold on to some of those qualities that brought them here in the first place...the dry and arid air, the majestic mountains, the sports culture, our willingness not to let politics completely divide us.
I have traversed this city's streets. It's just not giving me the flavors I desire. Denver consistently gives me scoops of vanilla when I keep asking for Cherry Garcia and Chunky Monkey.
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Originally Posted by zenkonami
Get thyself to Silverlake, Santa Monica or West Hollywood, my friend. Go west, young man. I fit none of your descriptions above, and I love it here. I'm getting more involved in the local music scene (we have a good local electronic scene here, which I'm only just discovering), have made friends at pubs across town, love the brews, the parks, the free days, the proximity of all that geology, wildlife and adventure...Clearly you need a little less outside and a little more "Gucci." Don't let the Chinooks hit you on the way out.
I am not here to get into some back and forth over subjective matters concerning this place. I am responding to the topic of the thread. If Denver is your paradise, wonderful! It's just does nothing for me.
IKEA and Trader Joe's (Love Trader Joe's by the way, I visited one in Phoenix a lot during a trip) are California stores that have only spread to where a lot of Californians have gone, like Arizona, Utah, and now Colorado's getting in on it too. But wait, food is food. We have Sprouts here - it's really similar to those places. You should try it.
Denver isn't a small town. We have 3 million people in the area. That was kind of an offensive comment. Small towns don't have dense downtown cores that are WAY larger than every other city's of comparable size.
And no, we don't need more lanes - well, C470 and 36 should have 3 in each direction and I-25 could use another one north of downtown and through downtown, but you know what would be AWESOME? Rail. Right alongside the freeway. We already have some of that along I-25 - a "city" trait that LA doesn't have. We "out-city" LA in that factor.
People are people anywhere you go. I think you're just having some bad luck.
And drivers? Oh please, I think you're REALLY just having bad luck. Drivers here are relatively friendly. Actually, they're pretty dang friendly.
I think you might want to develop for yourself more of an appreciation for the landscape. Here, we're pretty much on the edge of the earth - I flew back in just yesterday and looking out the window, I saw the mountains meet the city, and then the city meet the plains, and then brown plains as far as I could see. It was really majestic and with our large land area, really hit me that Denver is a huge city and very isolated at the same time. And I like that! There are many places that don't have mountains...like Kansas.
"Bland homes" are bland homes anywhere you go. If you want to make it not bland, paint it a pretty color, or decorate it somehow that sets it apart from the others. Infact, homes that were built where I live (suburbia) were painted many different colors instead of just beige when they were built.
Middle America? Well, look at a map. Oh, wait...
Anyways, there's not much that I personally can complain about when it comes to Denver. I go to college at the U of Oklahoma, and when I tell people I'm from Denver, they ask "WHY on EARTH are you HERE?!" I like the people I met, but Oklahoma is not for me... Here I come, CU Boulder.
Yes, there have been times that I have gone 70 on the 405. There are many times where traffic is flowing slower, but it is flowing! The only time where traffic is truly stop and go is when there is an accident or construction! I don't have to smash on brake pedal to the point where I feel that I'm on the verge on kicking out the floorboard of my car and I don't have to contend with people cutting in front of me who then travel half the speed I was going only to have to flip their brights on at me when I have a chance to pass them!
Oh give me a break. If the type of driving you described, is common in Denver now days, it's 100% imported from California. I lived in Denver from the 1970s - 90s, and the first time I ever saw what you describe was when I came to CA in the late 90s. Driving along with the flow of freeway traffic 70 mph. Then suddenly its like you hit a brick wall. You go from 70 to 5 mph in like 15 seconds. It scared the hell out of me. Then the speed builds back up to 70, and bam it happens again. Doesn't happen as much these days, because not that many people seem to have jobs now. So there isn't that much traffic on the freeways to begin with.
But its still a California thing. Same with left lane blocking, and improper lane changes. You'll find way worst examples of it in California. Red light running, I'll give you that one. Thats been Colorado past-time for a while. I'm not sure which state is worse for it.
As for you contention that Denver drivers have no skill. I find that laughable considering that everyday the state of California issues thousand of Drivers Licenses to recent immigrants. Most of whom have no driving experience what so ever, or if they do they come from countries like China or India, which have minimal traffic regulations. Most of these people would have a snowballs chance in hell of even being issued a Colorado Learners Permit, let alone a CO Drivers License.
As for the worst drivers, I'll leave it with this list, which I think speaks for it's self.
2010 GMAC Insurance Driver's Test Results
(Ranked in order of worst drivers by state to best drivers by state)
Scoring is from 1 to 100 on a 20 question test.
Yes, it's called Ralphs. King Soopers, City Market, Smiths, Frys, Dillon's, Kroger-- it's the same exact store owned by Kroger, with different marketing names in different states.
Anywhere U.S.A? Again, we're not top of the heap, but we have plenty of beautiful and varied homes. Have you lived in Phoenix? Las Vegas? Orange County? San Diego? Welcome to Anywhere, U.S.A. I'm not even sure what this "Middle America feel" is that you're talking about, but we are a city that sits on the cusp of the Great Plains and the Wild West. We're a city of trains and finance and mountains and plains and people from all walks of life. America is homogenized. Change it, or deal with it.
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Originally Posted by CO_Transplant
The homes here are bland and dreadful. At least the homes in Phoenix and Las Vegas have tile roofs providing a unique, regional flavor! The homes here could be in Indianapolis, Kansas City, Fargo.... I just get so bored driving around here.
This place feels like the Midwest. From the landscape, to speech patterns (what in the world is "pop"), to the corporate feel of everything... It's just so uninteresting and uninspiring.
On this one I'm going to have to agree with CO_Transplant. Zenkonami, not sure why you're picking on the southwest here. The homes in Phoenix maybe feel like "Anywhere Southwest USA," but definitely not "Anywhere USA." I wish there were more 1 story ranch style white stucco/ spanish red tile roof homes in Denver. There are some, but they are limited to individual custom built homes here and there, not whole neighborhoods. The closest whole neighborhoods like that are on the outskirts of Pueblo. The southwest and CA (both northern and southern) have a more bright, cheerful look to the built landscape. The newer homes built here look like a bunch of ugly utilitarian boxes with ugly beige colored vinyl siding, and they're almost exclusively 2 story. Some of the really high end new home neighborhoods in the Denver area such as Solterra, to name an example, are starting to look more appealing, but that's not the bread and butter of what Denver's all about. Also, when it comes to pre-war architecture, the old buildings in LA & San Francisco look more appealing and cheerful looking than the old buildings in this part of the country-- too much drab, dark bricks, I think.
Natural landscape wise, I wish Denver could be moved about 100 miles south, then it would be perfect.
So the worst thing aboout living in Denver is they dont allow pit bulls and they can take your dog that looks like a pit and make your vet tell them its not a pit? Sounds ok to me. Pits can be good dogs but they can turn on a dime. Also, I would be interested in seeing proof of one time anyone from animal control has mistaken a black lab or a boxer for that matter for a pit. The bottom line is in the very unlikely event that animal control takes your dog which I have never heard of...and asks you for proof that it is not a pit bull then you have a vet provide them with the documentation and go on with your life.
I would have a very huge problem with people taking my dog from me just because they can't tell the difference between dog breeds.
"Pit bull typically describes three kinds of dogs — the American Pit Bull Terrier, American Staffordshire Terrier and the Staffordshire Bull Terrier. But Denver’s ban applies to any dog that looks like a pit bull. The animal’s actual behavior does not matter." - Associated Press at MSNBC.MSN.COM Denver pit bull ban leads to 'dogs in hiding' - Health - Pet health - Other Pet News - msnbc.com
My point on this post is not "for or against" the ban, it's simply my opinion about one big issue that I personally have about living in Denver, CO which is the topic of this thread.
Again, the city of Denver has the authority to take your dog from you if they want to. Just because some people haven't been keeping up with the news on this issue, doesn't mean it hasn't happened.
Breed Specific Legislation has pros and cons. Mainly pros.
-> Last Christmas, I was walking my Aussie puppy down the road (not in Denver). Out of nowhere, one Pitbull UNPROVOKED, attacked my Aussie. My Aussie didn't even sniff or make contact with the Pit. Anyway, the Pit Bull drew blood and I was in the vet for hours afterwards. The owner of the Pit offered to pay, but his check bounced.
-> Pit's historically have issues. For every 10 good Pit's, you have 100 bad pits. Thats just the way it is.
Read this headline:
Pit bull kills baby in Kalamazoo family's home | Detroit Free Press | freep.com (http://www.freep.com/article/20110220/NEWS06/110221002/Pit-bull-kills-baby-Kalamazoo-family-s-home - broken link)
I keep hearing things like this but I don't see it. That said, I mostly hear this from people who live in the suburbs. Denverites work hard, and then they play hard. Then they relax, and sometimes that makes them quieter, or less social to people they don't know. A lot of people are just more private. Consider where you are and what attracted so many people to Colorado! That said, if I take the initiative, I have a very good success rate meeting new people.
Actually, I know a lot more of my neighbors since moving from Denver proper to the suburbs. It's all very serendipitious, IMO. YOu get in a 'hood that does neighborhood parties, etc, and you meet a lot of people. If your neighborhood doesn't do that, maybe you (not you personally) can organize one.
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Originally Posted by CO_Transplant
I don't live in the suburbs and actually despise 90 percent of them. The suburbs here are mind-numbingly boring and depressing. They're filled with anywhere homes found on brown, treeless prairies with the smell of cattle manure wafting through every moment the wind blows. How is that attractive? This only adds to the cowtowniness of Denver.
Someone on another forum asked me if the cattle drive down 17th St. was something to be "proud" of. I replied, "Yes, eat much?" Denver's "cowtowniness" is part of what makes Denver, Denver.
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Why is Centennial JUST getting an IKEA? IKEA has been in this country from almost 30 years. Why has it taken 30 years for IKEA to reach here? Are we just that isolated from the rest of the country? It sure feels like it! The stores I listed cover multiple states and are coveted by the masses. Why would anyone want BeauJo's in LA?
I am used to my Barney's and Gucci! This area can't even support its Saks. Am I just supposed to shop at Macy's for "fashions" that everyone else around here is wearing? How are people supposed to look fabulous with so few upscale stores? It's so baffling to me.
What is the big whoop with IKEA? The first Macy's I ever entered was in California.
I am used to my Barney's and Gucci! This area can't even support its Saks. Am I just supposed to shop at Macy's for "fashions" that everyone else around here is wearing? How are people supposed to look fabulous with so few upscale stores? It's so baffling to me.
Must not be very familiar at all with high end shopping. You can purchase Gucci at Neiman Marcus as well as about three other local high end Cherry Creek botiques. In fact Denver did have Gucci for about a decade, but found that their product was too saturated in the area because of the other retailers carrying same accesories. No it's not on the same level as LA here, but there are plenty of very high end retail options..try finding Hermes in Iowa. Barneys is a fairly recent addition to the LA market(only a decade) and there are rumors that it might occupy the Saks location. The Saks location is considered to bein the top TEN most sought after locations in the entire US. Try getting out of the house a little more you might even notice the Blue Jeans Bar on Filmore, ya the same little shop on third street in Santa Monica. Denver is far from lacking when it comes to high end shopping for a city it's size, you are obviously just more than a little unaware. There are numerous places to get the best of the best in Denver.
FYI I just spent the past week crawling on the 405. 70mph..in your dreams maybe.
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I like the people I met, but Oklahoma is not for me... Here I come, CU Boulder.
