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What could I say to change your mind? I once heard that if someone asked you this question and you didn't have an answer, then you're probably not ready to change your mind. Are you sure you're open to changing your opinion on this subject?
For me, being a logical person, all one has to do is show me the logic as opposed to the emotions and feelings. When people say..."I do not feel....." ....that does not have a good probability of changing my mind. When people converse implying that actions do not create reaction or that the present is not connected to the past in their reasoning, to me that is illogical and I cannot be persuaded by the illogical.
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You talk about the blacks and the victim mentality. Despite what happened in the past, can you explain what purpose this mentality serves? What's the point of possessing a victim mentality? IMO, all it leads to is a negative outlook on life and a perpetuating cycle of loathing and self-fulfilling failure. Consider the alternative of being an optimist about life and thinking that nobody can hold you down. Do you think that successful African Americans possess the former or the latter?
I am not a psychologist so I cannot really answer the question of what purpose it serves. I cannot tell you what the human appendix organ is for either, but humans have it, whether it serves a positive purpose or not. I do believe, though, to have such a mentality is HUMAN and that a certain percentage of people will have it as a REACTION to something. I do not see it as a "black" thing, but rather, a "situation" thing. Hence, I believe that given a certain situation the reaction in a percentage of human population exposed to that situation will be the victim mentality. I do not assume blacks or whites would behave differently exposed to similar situations. When people seem to argue that they would or that they have, again, that is suggesting black inferiority. One cannot assume, logically, the the races are inherently equal then assume that the difference in behavior or performance is due to inherent reason. The only logical way to assume differences in behavior or performance between races is inherent is to assume that the races are inherently unequal. When people make arguments that imply the latter, regardless of how nice they are, how many black friends they have or what color they are.....its racist.
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You talk about the revival in Downtown Detroit mostly consisting of whites. Is that really the case? I don't go downtown daily, but I have been down there quite often. When I was down there during the Jazz Fest, I can confidently say that the crowd was majority black. And in comparison to cities like Denver or Minneapolis, I am also quite confident that Detroit has more African Americans wandering the downtown streets than either of those places.
I am talking about the economic growth of downtown. The new workers and businesses. To me it exposes the level of black unemployment and the lack of black entrepreneurs. Now, I am not suggesting that there is current racism creating that, because many blacks lack the education and skill sets and are structural unemployable. However, there are actions that created that reaction in blacks to manifest.
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One thing you have to consider about much of the African American population in Detroit is the mindset and origination. Many of them, as you yourself mentioned, grew up in an impoverished setting. A lot of them come from broken families. Their educational system is pretty poor, so they don't receive the essential life skills needed to move out of poverty. As a result, many end up adapting a thug mentality to survive on the mean streets. That needs to change if they wish to be accepted into middle-class society. Educated, middle class people do now want to be around that, whether it's the thug mentality or the redneck racist/bigoted mentality.
Yes, but those conditions exist for a reason and as a reaction. One things leads to another. The million dollar question is how do you change it? America looks less and less able to provide opportunities that it once provided in the past and there is no social or political will to target the conditions of socioeconomic class and or racial inequality in this nation.
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For all that to change, there needs to be more investment in the city. Whether it's from whites or blacks or Hispanics or Asians, it should not matter. The city needs an injection of revenue so that it can become self-sustaining again. With more tax revenue in the city, they will have more resources to clean up the streets and improve the educational resources. But before all that, the mindsets of the locals need to change. Instead of thinking that this is "our city", they need to be open to allowing outsiders in to help improve it. From what I've learned about the history of the city, this has always been one of the major setbacks preventing the city from really improving.
In America people are free to move to any city that they want. A city become YOURS by choice. Hence, for the people who are living in Detroit.....it is their city. Anyone who moves to Detroit makes it their city too, black, white, Hispanic or whatever. The people who did not want to live in Detroit moved giving the locals who stayed the right to call it "theirs" because they are the ones living there. In other words, it only became "theirs" by the choices of others to relocate out of the city. People left from free will and should return from free will.
Last edited by Indentured Servant; 11-23-2013 at 06:19 AM..
I am not a psychologist so I cannot really answer the question of what purpose it serves. I cannot tell you what the human appendix organ is for either, but humans have it, whether it serves a positive purpose or not. I do believe, though, to have such a mentality is HUMAN and that a certain percentage of people will have it as a REACTION to something. I do not see it as a "black" thing, but rather, a "situation" thing. Hence, I believe that given a certain situation the reaction in a percentage of human population exposed to that situation will be the victim mentality. I do not assume blacks or whites would behave differently exposed to similar situations. When people seem to argue that they would or that they have, again, that is suggesting black inferiority. One cannot assume, logically, the the races are inherently equal then assume that the difference in behavior or performance is due to inherent reason. The only logical way to assume differences in behavior or performance between races is inherent is to assume that the races are inherently unequal. When people make arguments that imply the latter, regardless of how nice they are, how many black friends they have or what color they are.....its racist.
My point is, it serves no positive purpose in one's life. If anything, it's a hindrance. If you want to talk about being made to feel inferior, I've experienced that, too. As a Millennial, I read derogatory comments on this forum all the time about how entitled and overly-sensitive we are. As a bachelor degree holder in a field that is not considered technical, I have to constantly read about how worthless my education is from people who never went to college. You imply that this type of negative criticism and projection of inferiority is unique to black people. However, many of us are up against this very thing every day. If I were to sit around brooding and feeling sorry for myself because of what some jack*ss told me, I guarantee I would not be as successful as I am today (and probably neither would you). I would find excuses for why I'm not successful and that would pretty much seal the deal.
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Originally Posted by Indentured Servant
I am talking about the economic growth of downtown. The new workers and businesses. To me it exposes the level of black unemployment and the lack of black entrepreneurs. Now, I am not suggesting that there is current racism creating that, because many blacks lack the education and skill sets and are structural unemployable. However, there are actions that created that reaction in blacks to manifest.
That's really all you need to say about that. Understanding why this is the case is alright, but it's negligible in the grand scheme of things. We need to focus our energy and attention on creating a more conducive environment where African Americans in Detroit are more employable. I made some suggestions in my previous post about this. Again, brooding on the why will not do a darn thing to fix the problem at hand.
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Originally Posted by Indentured Servant
Yes, but those conditions exist for a reason and as a reaction. One things leads to another. The million dollar question is how do you change it? America looks less and less able to provide opportunities that it once provided in the past and there is no social or political will to target the conditions of socioeconomic class and or racial inequality in this nation.
I feel like the implication here is that it's intentional that we try to keep African Americans poor. I don't believe that is true, because we see plenty of cases today of successful African Americans. If we truly wanted to keep African Americans poor, we would see zero instances of them being successful. The fact that many African Americans in Detroit are impoverished is of pure consequence. These people just happened to be born in a poor city, with a poor economy, and a poor educational system. Many of these kids will grow up in broken families as well. I think the first thing that needs to change in these communities is the belief in a strong family core. If I were born in the same environment as the people living in the "hoods", I can't say that my life trajectory would differ much from there's. Hopefully, as the city becomes more economically stable, the inner-city educational system can improve and give these kids a better chance at learning the essential life skills to succeed in life.
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Originally Posted by Indentured Servant
In America people are free to move to any city that they want. A city become YOURS by choice. Hence, for the people who are living in Detroit.....it is their city. Anyone who moves to Detroit makes it their city too, black, white, Hispanic or whatever. The people who did not want to live in Detroit moved giving the locals who stayed the right to call it "theirs" because they are the ones living there. In other words, it only became "theirs" by the choices of others to relocate out of the city. People left from free will and should return from free will.
I agree. The city belongs to anybody who lives there, pays taxes there, and contributes to it positively.
to be fair detroit issues started with the pull out of industry from the area. when there isnt any money or jobs a city cant survive. discussing principles instead of personality is a good thing.
many of america's problems as a whole ultimately came from pull out of industry.
no jobs no money.
here is a question for all americans its not a question of color of all, why did they leave? ask an employe he will tell u.
lousy employees
My experiences lead me to believe that quality rarely matters. The bottom line always comes first. Industry left because it was cheaper to build things in 3rd world countries, not because employees were better or worse than a previous period of time.
My point is, it serves no positive purpose in one's life. If anything, it's a hindrance. If you want to talk about being made to feel inferior, I've experienced that, too. As a Millennial, I read derogatory comments on this forum all the time about how entitled and overly-sensitive we are. As a bachelor degree holder in a field that is not considered technical, I have to constantly read about how worthless my education is from people who never went to college. You imply that this type of negative criticism and projection of inferiority is unique to black people. However, many of us are up against this very thing every day. If I were to sit around brooding and feeling sorry for myself because of what some jack*ss told me, I guarantee I would not be as successful as I am today (and probably neither would you). I would find excuses for why I'm not successful and that would pretty much seal the deal.
What point are you trying to make in this quote? Previously I mentioned the propensity of people to reason in such a way that concludes black inferiority. I am a THINKER. If one tells me that A = B then tells me that B = C.....the thinker in me will deduce that A = C. The problem is when I make such deductions I get accused of slander or making something out of nothing. Yet, what you are telling me here is that the black experience is not unique, in degree or kind, to account for what you implicitly see as a behavior or condition that is unique in degree or kind in blacks....ie....the victim mentality. If blacks are not the way they are because of different external experiences, in degree or kind, it can only be internal reasons why these conditions, that are unique to blacks in degree or kind (the victim mentality?), manifest with blacks. Why should not such inferences been seen as racist when they infer inherent black inferiority as the root cause of behavior endemic to blacks?
You have injected yourself and your experience into this conversation. If I respond to that I will be accused of "making this personal". Thus, I am trying not to respond to the use of your personal experiences. So if you could please converse without using your personal experiences we can avoid making things "personal".
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That's really all you need to say about that. Understanding why this is the case is alright, but it's negligible in the grand scheme of things. We need to focus our energy and attention on creating a more conducive environment where African Americans in Detroit are more employable. I made some suggestions in my previous post about this. Again, brooding on the why will not do a darn thing to fix the problem at hand.
I do not know of any scientific reasoning that concludes as you have. Understanding why and how things evolve is how technology and society has advanced. I could not disagree with you more. What would happen if you applied that reasoning to the medical field? Do you think it is important to understand why certain diseases happen as a means of developing a cure or treatment?
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I feel like the implication here is that it's intentional that we try to keep African Americans poor. I don't believe that is true, because we see plenty of cases today of successful African Americans. If we truly wanted to keep African Americans poor, we would see zero instances of them being successful. The fact that many African Americans in Detroit are impoverished is of pure consequence. These people just happened to be born in a poor city, with a poor economy, and a poor educational system. Many of these kids will grow up in broken families as well. I think the first thing that needs to change in these communities is the belief in a strong family core. If I were born in the same environment as the people living in the "hoods", I can't say that my life trajectory would differ much from there's. Hopefully, as the city becomes more economically stable, the inner-city educational system can improve and give these kids a better chance at learning the essential life skills to succeed in life.
Nope. Not implying that at all. History has consequences is all I was saying. The present did not create most of today's problems....the past did. So people in the present does not have to be guilty of something for the assertion to be true.
PS...note the bold. You asked a question of how my opinion could be changed and I provided the methodology. "I feel...." is not a very efficacious means of changing my opinion.
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I agree. The city belongs to anybody who lives there, pays taxes there, and contributes to it positively.
The city belongs to EVERYONE who lives there....without restrictions on who is paying taxes or who is positive or negative. A city represents a PACKAGE DEAL....as it takes all kinds. Can one imagine what would happen if laws reflected your criteria? It would look like 1950 Mississippi...in many ways.
Last edited by Indentured Servant; 11-23-2013 at 09:29 AM..
I cannot see how anyone can assume that blacks are inherently equal, but argue that they perform and behave unequal for inherent reasons. People then defend this claim by listing other groups who supposedly performed superior against the same odds, which again, is to defend the claim that blacks are behaving inferior....which again is the same doctrine/beliefs of the era of legalized oppression.
What I glean from many whites is this. "If the situation had been reverse, whites could and would do better than blacks are doing". Is that not the assumption implicit in the criticism of blacks? Whites would not have the victim mentality, they would not have the poverty, the crime, the out of wedlock births. Again, it seems to always come back to the assumption that blacks are inferior, for inherent reasons. This assumption of black inferiority is what I see as the "racism", because that assumption has been the root of racism for centuries in this nation.
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I do believe, though, to have such a mentality is HUMAN and that a certain percentage of people will have it as a REACTION to something. I do not see it as a "black" thing, but rather, a "situation" thing. Hence, I believe that given a certain situation the reaction in a percentage of human population exposed to that situation will be the victim mentality. I do not assume blacks or whites would behave differently exposed to similar situations. When people seem to argue that they would or that they have, again, that is suggesting black inferiority. One cannot assume, logically, the the races are inherently equal then assume that the difference in behavior or performance is due to inherent reason. The only logical way to assume differences in behavior or performance between races is inherent is to assume that the races are inherently unequal. When people make arguments that imply the latter, regardless of how nice they are, how many black friends they have or what color they are.....its racist.
I agree with you. However, there is a difference between saying that individuals are inherently equal and saying that cultures are inherently equal. Let's compare an upper-income community of black people to a lower-income community of white people. The individuals of both are inherently equal, but the whites would understandably be disadvantaged due to higher crime, lower educational standards, more broken homes, etc. They would also probably suffer from the victim mentality that the cards are stacked up against them and they have no chance of living a fulfilling life and it's all the fault of others, etc. This victim mentality would be unjustified because it is entirely possible and proven than people in their situation can rise above the adversity. They are not inherently condemned to adversity.
Now, when one argues that because of 300 years of oppression, blacks should be excused for having no desire to better themselves, to me that is a claim of inferiority. It's saying that the sins perpetuated against one's ancestors have been passed inherently down through the genetic bloodstream to oneself. What bothers me most about blacks that constantly blame white people for all their troubles is that they fail to realize that the greatest dangers facing the stereotypical black community (which I realize not all blacks belong to) are the result of blacks victimizing blacks. You can go to a poor white community and see the same white-on-white victimization, but whites don't have the easy-out of saying that their dilemma is all the fault of blacks. And thus, many blacks feel that there is no hope in changing their circumstances both as individuals and as a community because they are inherently incapable of doing so.
I agree with you. However, there is a difference between saying that individuals are inherently equal and saying that cultures are inherently equal. Let's compare an upper-income community of black people to a lower-income community of white people. The individuals of both are inherently equal, but the whites would understandably be disadvantaged due to higher crime, lower educational standards, more broken homes, etc. They would also probably suffer from the victim mentality that the cards are stacked up against them and they have no chance of living a fulfilling life and it's all the fault of others, etc. This victim mentality would be unjustified because it is entirely possible and proven than people in their situation can rise above the adversity. They are not inherently condemned to adversity.
I wanted to introduce culture but I figured if the conversation continued, someone else would, so thanks for the segue. First off, culture is a LEARNED condition. Its socialization and acculturation via emulation. If you want to know the root of a culture....look at the language spoken. The only language that African Americans speak and know, collectively, is ENGLISH, which is European in origin. There is no "black culture" unless its "African Culture". Everything African Americans learned and emulated came from their experiences over 400 years in this land....not Africa.
Secondly, language, dialects, vernaculars and cultures develop differently from isolation. Isolation existed in America from the propensity of segregation. If all races were immersed and integrated and treated the same in this nation from inception, there would be no "racial cultures" but only regional cultures. Now, if one race was treated inferior to another race, and that happened, and isolated and segregate, and that happened too, then it is probably that such created inherently unequal cultures....because what was being programmed into the people from their experiences were different. Its not just economics that has been influenced by unequal treatment......cultures are also shaped by unequal treatment as well if the unequal treatment manifest over generations.
Lastly, one has to account for the fact that there exists the exceptional, the average, the sub par in every race, creed, color, religion or gender. One also has to integrate that no one experiences the exact same situation so everyone's experience is unique, if only slightly. Hence, these two factors will account for human variability in a population set. Thus, one should expect some to rise from a situation because they are exceptional or atypical. Some people may rise from a situation of luck or because the degree of the impediment was not as sever for them as others. There are many permutations of these factors that account for variability and hence I do not logically see others people success, in spite of odds, to mean that others SHOULD have found the same success. Many people who fought in world war II died, while many other survived. Would it be logical or fair to say that everyone should have survived because the survival of other in the war proved that it could be done? Again, its the permutations of multiple factors makes for the variability in outcome.
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Now, when one argues that because of 300 years of oppression, blacks should be excused for having no desire to better themselves, to me that is a claim of inferiority. It's saying that the sins perpetuated against one's ancestors have been passed inherently down through the genetic bloodstream to oneself. What bothers me most about blacks that constantly blame white people for all their troubles is that they fail to realize that the greatest dangers facing the stereotypical black community (which I realize not all blacks belong to) are the result of blacks victimizing blacks. You can go to a poor white community and see the same white-on-white victimization, but whites don't have the easy-out of saying that their dilemma is all the fault of blacks. And thus, many blacks feel that there is no hope in changing their circumstances both as individuals and as a community because they are inherently incapable of doing so.
But who is saying that blacks should be excused and where is it being said? I think that in world where there was true and sincere desires to reverse the damage....which is to not excuse, blacks should be TARGETED to undo the damage done. I do not think Affirmative Action is how you do that either. I interpret excuse to essentially be a false claim for reason. I do not see the 300 year history as a false claim against black reality due to the present being the creation of the past.
What point are you trying to make in this quote? Previously I mentioned the propensity of people to reason in such a way that concludes black inferiority. I am a THINKER. If one tells me that A = B then tells me that B = C.....the thinker in me will deduce that A = C. The problem is when I make such deductions I get accused of slander or making something out of nothing. Yet, what you are telling me here is that the black experience is not unique, in degree or kind, to account for what you implicitly see as a behavior or condition that is unique in degree or kind in blacks....ie....the victim mentality. If blacks are not the way they are because of different external experiences, in degree or kind, it can only be internal reasons why these conditions, that are unique to blacks in degree or kind (the victim mentality?), manifest with blacks. Why should not such inferences been seen as racist when they infer inherent black inferiority as the root cause of behavior endemic to blacks?
My point is that many of us can act like victims of some form of bigotry or discrimination. Many of us choose not to and that allows us to live a more prosperous, positive life.
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Originally Posted by Indentured Servant
You have injected yourself and your experience into this conversation. If I respond to that I will be accused of "making this personal". Thus, I am trying not to respond to the use of your personal experiences. So if you could please converse without using your personal experiences we can avoid making things "personal".
Without my experiences, I have nothing to base my beliefs on. I assume you and everyone else on this forum are doing the same.
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Originally Posted by Indentured Servant
I do not know of any scientific reasoning that concludes as you have. Understanding why and how things evolve is how technology and society has advanced. I could not disagree with you more. What would happen if you applied that reasoning to the medical field? Do you think it is important to understand why certain diseases happen as a means of developing a cure or treatment?
I'm not saying that the why is not important to know about or understand (so the same mistakes don't happen again), but to place 100% emphasis on that over how to make it better going forward is a mistake IMO. Don't forget the past, but focus now on how to improve it. Otherwise, your loathing and bitterness for what happened in the past will serve as your own prison.
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Originally Posted by Indentured Servant
Nope. Not implying that at all. History has consequences is all I was saying. The present did not create most of today's problems....the past did. So people in the present does not have to be guilty of something for the assertion to be true.
The problem with these types of discussions is that they focus entirely on the past injustices, and nothing on actual solutions. That said, what would you propose for fixing these problems? What do you think needs to be done?
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Originally Posted by Indentured Servant
The city belongs to EVERYONE who lives there....without restrictions on who is paying taxes or who is positive or negative. A city represents a PACKAGE DEAL....as it takes all kinds. Can one imagine what would happen if laws reflected your criteria? It would look like 1950 Mississippi...in many ways.
I beg to differ. If you're not contributing towards the city in any way, then you have little say in what needs to be done to it. Just as you don't have the right to walk into the home that I pay for and dictate how my house is to be run, a non-contributor has little right to dictate how the city should run itself. I'm sure most African Americans in Detroit would agree they don't want some non-tax paying suburbanite telling them how to run "their" city either.
My point is that many of us can act like victims of some form of bigotry or discrimination. Many of us choose not to and that allows us to live a more prosperous, positive life.
The ability to choose is a mental cognition and is a trait of intelligence. Is that correct or not? If other people can and do make these choices, but blacks cannot at the same rate, what is the logical implication of that concerning black intelligence?
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Without my experiences, I have nothing to base my beliefs on. I assume you and everyone else on this forum are doing the same.
Well....like I said....I got accused of making things personal in my response to your personal experience. I will say that in speaking on a topic that involves millions, a personal story proves nothing about the macro reality.
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I'm not saying that the why is not important to know about or understand (so the same mistakes don't happen again), but to place 100% emphasis on that over how to make it better going forward is a mistake IMO. Don't forget the past, but focus now on how to improve it. Otherwise, your loathing and bitterness for what happened in the past will serve as your own prison.
I am not talking about EMOTIONS. Why do people assume bitterness is the natural result of knowing why something is the way it is? If an emotion is generated from knowing why, why would not that emotion be love and a determination to rise above the situation? Why would people assuming self loathing and not determination and inspiration?
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The problem with these types of discussions is that they focus entirely on the past injustices, and nothing on actual solutions. That said, what would you propose for fixing these problems? What do you think needs to be done?
Well.....the solutions are non-starters. My solution is simple and logical. Newton posits that an object moved from equilibrium by a force requires an equal and opposite force to move it back to equilibrium. That is my solution, America needs to put as much effort into targeting blacks to undo the damage as it has put in targeting blacks that did the damage.....but we all know that is NOT going to happen. I am not talking about targeting that includes, gays, women, religions, minorities...in some cookie cutter approach that does not deal with the particulars of the black dilemma either....because that will not work.
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I beg to differ. If you're not contributing towards the city in any way, then you have little say in what needs to be done to it. Just as you don't have the right to walk into the home that I pay for and dictate how my house is to be run, a non-contributor has little right to dictate how the city should run itself. I'm sure most African Americans in Detroit would agree they don't want some non-tax paying suburbanite telling them how to run "their" city either.
To be honest.....most blacks do not think like that. Black people do not think in terms of who is paying taxes and one person having more rights than another just because they pay taxes. Some people cannot find work, may have some real disability, may be retired....and all would be disenfranchised politically for not paying taxes. That just sounds like old time America where landowners only have the right to vote.
The ability to choose is a mental cognition and is a trait of intelligence. Is that correct or not? If other people can and do make these choices, but blacks cannot at the same rate, what is the logical implication of that concerning black intelligence?
You can twist and pry whatever meaning you want out of my words. That is clearly not what I meant.
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Originally Posted by Indentured Servant
Well....like I said....I got accused of making things personal in my response to your personal experience. I will say that in speaking on a topic that involves millions, a personal story proves nothing about the macro reality.
Yes, millions of stories in which you've gained insight on through the experience of reading about them. Jay-Z put it the best I think. "And it's much bigger issues in the world, I know; But I first had to take care of the world I know". I can only focus on the change I can make. And given what little resources I have to work with, the best I can do is treat ALL people I meet with respect and dignity. I suggest that others do the same. Hopefully, the result will be an overall better experience for the world's citizens.
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Originally Posted by Indentured Servant
I am not talking about EMOTIONS. Why do people assume bitterness is the natural result of knowing why something is the way it is? If an emotion is generated from knowing why, why would not that emotion be love and a determination to rise above the situation? Why would people assuming self loathing and not determination and inspiration?
Oh, so you're not bitter?
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Originally Posted by Indentured Servant
Well.....the solutions are non-starters. My solution is simple and logical. Newton posits that an object moved from equilibrium by a force requires an equal and opposite force to move it back to equilibrium. That is my solution, America needs to put as much effort into targeting blacks to undo the damage as it has put in targeting blacks that did the damage.....but we all know that is NOT going to happen. I am not talking about targeting that includes, gays, women, religions, minorities...in some cookie cutter approach that does not deal with the particulars of the black dilemma either....because that will not work.
So your position is the kill the solution before we even try to implement it, because obviously it will not work. That seems like the right approach to me.
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Originally Posted by Indentured Servant
To be honest.....most blacks do not think like that. Black people do not think in terms of who is paying taxes and one person having more rights than another just because they pay taxes. Some people cannot find work, may have some real disability, may be retired....and all would be disenfranchised politically for not paying taxes. That just sounds like old time America where landowners only have the right to vote.
Well, good luck on your journey to find this elusive solution. I don't think there's much I can say or do at this point that will ever change your mind.
Last edited by Tekkie; 11-23-2013 at 12:01 PM..
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