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I have recently seen some posts where the poster advises people that are moving here to stay north of 16 mile because anything south is too close to Detroit, and therefore already crime-ridden, or on the verge of being so.
I live in Royal Oak, and find this opinion to be silly. I am starting this thread to see if this is indeed the general consensus, or instead a minority opinion. If you share the "stay above 16 Mile" opinion, I would be curious as to what personal experience has led you to that conclusion.
I have the stay above 16 mile road mentality, as does all of my family that live in the Metro Detroit area.
Why? I'm a Michigan native. Born in Detroit, raised in Warren and know the areas well. Now I wouldn't live below 16 mile road because the schools are better north of 16 mile, the demographics are more to my liking, there's generally less crime (Moderator cut: linking to competitors sites is not allowed), you are farther away from the people of Detroit coming out to the suburbs to shop, hang out and be up to no good, there's often newer homes the further out you go, etc.
There are so many reasons. People in my family were around there growing up in Detroit. They took off as part of the white flight for the suburbs and we've all watched the decline of the city. The decline of the city is slowly spreading to the northern suburbs, especially those right on the Detroit border around 8 mile road or so. Some of the places are starting to look the same.
When I was in high school living in Warren I never thought it was a great place to be. Now I drive through there where I was from and I would never move there, it looks awful. People don't take care of their homes, crime is up, schools have gone downhill, more minorities have moved in, etc.
So most people that know the area and know it will move out further if they can afford to do so. Some people can't afford to move out further.
This is not to say that there are NO good places below 16 mile road. There will be decent pockets here and there. But I can't see why anyone would want to live within a couple of miles of such decay if they can help it.
So my personal experiences with it come from having grown up there and seeing the decline. Hearing the stories from my grandparents about the decline of the city of Detroit. From doing the research on crime statistics.
I have the stay above 16 mile road mentality, as does all of my family that live in the Metro Detroit area.
Why? I'm a Michigan native. Born in Detroit, raised in Warren and know the areas well. Now I wouldn't live below 16 mile road because the schools are better north of 16 mile, the demographics are more to my liking, there's generally less crime (Moderator cut: linking to competitors sites is not allowed), you are farther away from the people of Detroit coming out to the suburbs to shop, hang out and be up to no good, there's often newer homes the further out you go, etc.
There are so many reasons. People in my family were around there growing up in Detroit. They took off as part of the white flight for the suburbs and we've all watched the decline of the city. The decline of the city is slowly spreading to the northern suburbs, especially those right on the Detroit border around 8 mile road or so. Some of the places are starting to look the same.
When I was in high school living in Warren I never thought it was a great place to be. Now I drive through there where I was from and I would never move there, it looks awful. People don't take care of their homes, crime is up, schools have gone downhill, more minorities have moved in, etc.
So most people that know the area and know it will move out further if they can afford to do so. Some people can't afford to move out further.
This is not to say that there are NO good places below 16 mile road. There will be decent pockets here and there. But I can't see why anyone would want to live within a couple of miles of such decay if they can help it.
So my personal experiences with it come from having grown up there and seeing the decline. Hearing the stories from my grandparents about the decline of the city of Detroit. From doing the research on crime statistics.
Thanks for the background; I really mean that b/c it helps to know where everyone is coming from and get different point of views. That said, I think it's safe to say that you and your family's opinions are a bit colored by growing up during the height of white flight and racial tensions. This is all good and fine, but opinions like yours deserve to be balanced by those on the other side of the fence in Detroit. Also, IMHO, opinions of transplants such as Jeff and myself are especially helpful b/c we don't have all the baggage and tainted views from growing up in the midst of the "Hatfield and McCoy" feud.
My main issue with your reasoning is that you can't have things both ways - say that everything south of 16 Mile is crap and when we then bring up Pontiac say that there are exceptions. I hate to say it, but you're basically saying that anywhere there are black people, it's crap, right? Isn't that easier to say than everything south of 16 Mile? You just feel you can't say it, but it's pretty obvious. The fact is that unless you move to the hinterland, there will always have outlying troublemakers - white and black. Even then, you have meth and ecstasy in the country now, so I guess all of the US is crap then? To say that only pockets south of 16 Mile are good is shear lunacy. Why don't you move to "100 Mile Rd" then? Why even be near Detroit? B/c the jobs are here, eh? So you'll leach off the area and take the jobs, but you'll poo-poo the entire Metro region within 16 miles of downtown? So you take and take over generations, move out to where you think it's safe and out of sight of the city's problems - the very same city that made your job possible, and then wonder why it's going downhill?
Cato, the problem is that outsiders like you guys that move to the Detroit are just don't understand how it is, how it's always been and how it will remain. Outsiders try to "fix" the problem but we Metro Detroiters don't think there's a problem, we like things the way they are.
No, not every area that has blacks is conceived as being bad or crime ridden. There are some blacks that can afford to live in the good areas. But places that have a high percentage of black residents are perceived as being undesirable or crime ridden to most white people in the metro area.
You have to understand the history of the city of Detroit and the metro area to really understand where our mindset came from and how it's passed down generation to generation. I was raised hearing the stories of how Detroit was beautiful and as minorities moved in it went downhill and the whites had to flee for the suburbs.
I really don't think people that aren't native of the area or have been there for a long time will ever really understand the complex dynamics of the metro area. But those of us that were raised there know it very well and much to the disapointment to outsiders we actually like it. I will teach it to my kids as it was taught to me and my mother and so on.
And about Pontiac... like I said, there are exceptions to all things. People know to stay clear of Pontiac, it's a given. And some people do move out far, very far and even up north, even out of the state. You just have to learn the dynamics of it to really understand it.
Well, of course I agree with Cato. I think you hit it square on the head: it's really about race, but it's just too hard to come out and say that.
The insinuation seems to be that because we are new(ish) here we don't know what we are talking about. I have to say that, in my defense at least ( and I suspect in Cato's ), I have become somewhat of a nerd when it comes to learning about the Metro area. Besides city-data, I accumulated tons of info on the area before we ever moved here. In addition to that, I read all the local papers now and am the sort of person who follows local news. Plus, we have now lived here almost a year, so I can add a year's worth of personal experience to this as well.
You've stated, Redwings, that you were born and raised here. Like Cato said, you are all poisened by the local phenomenon of a racial divide that goes back for generations and decades. It's like we're in Alabama circa 1960. Okay maybe not THAT bad, but still...
I have (white) co-workers that were born and raised in Detroit, and like so many, fled to the 'burbs in the early 70's. They all live in this area, mostly south of 16 Mile in the Royal Oak area. I have told them your opinion, and though they admit some people do think the same way, they have by and large scoffed at the idea themselves.
Keep in mind that Cato and myself have both lived in various parts of the country and have an outside perspective on the area. We can see perhaps what those who have lived her so long can't see, or maybe they refuse to see. Also keep in mind that the part of Detroit that we live near is Palmer Woods, not decaying THAT bad, so it's not quite like we live near Cass or Highland Park.
Your opinion is obviously one that is a lifetime in the making, but it doesn't make it necassarily correct. For your personal preference, sure, but not for all.
But those of us that were raised there know it very well and much to the disapointment to outsiders we actually like it. I will teach it to my kids as it was taught to me and my mother and so on.
Yippee! Passing on the racial hatred to the coming generation...how sweet.
Everyone in the Detroit area (at least natives) know that you stay clear of the city of Detroit and you stay clear of Pontiac (among some other metro area cities). That is another bad area that people who care try to avoid.
Let's deal with this "everyone" and "native" nonsense that you've stated before and here. My in-laws and wife have lived here for decades - since the 50/60s for the former and from birth until college for the latter. Some of the first places my in-laws took me was around Palmer Woods, Belle Isle, Indian Village, Pewabic Tile, DIA, Eastern Market, etc. This wasn't a quick shot into the city and back out fearing for our lives, but regular day-long trips. IMHO, most of the image problems with Detroit has to do with certain residents propagating exaggerated stories of rape and pillaging for the ENTIRE city. I've told the story before about how some faculty members were horrified I parked on the street during my first week at Wayne State - like my car would be a flaming wreck when I got back. You know what, WSU's campus is safer than such vaunted schools like Johns Hopkins, University of Pennsylvania, and the University of Chicago, but you would never know it talking to some people. My car was and continues to be unscratched when I get back to it. My car window was smashed no less than 3 times when I parked in the tony University City area of Philadelphia. Yet people have this image of a serene ivy-covered campus. It's amazing what a public image can do to fuel people's perconceived notions about an area without knowing anything about it. I admit I was one of these people before visiting thanks to some Baghdad-Detroit stories. People who continue to paint the city in broad strokes and throw "the baby out with the bathwater" are doing a terrible disservice to the city. If you're not helping and contribute in some little way to the solution, leave - it's as simple as that. The city will be better off without fanatical generalization being propagated by people who supposedly love the city. Yeah, Detroit was "great in the 50s" but so was South Africa...assuming you were white that is.
Cato hit on another problem as well: The perception that every square inch of Detroit is Bagdad is just ignorant. If you ventured into Detroit at all, you would know this is not true. Sure, some parts are bad, but some parts aren't bad at all. I have tried to stay out of what I know to be the bad areas, and as a result I have yet to have a problem when visiting Detroit.
Last Saturday my wife and I drove down to Palmer Woods and just drove around looking at the mansions. On the way back up we drove through 7 Mile and Livernois. It reminded me of the downtown areas in RO or Ferndale, except it was almost all black people strolling through the shops. We didn't feel threatened, and I didn't see anything frightening. It was all in fact rather nice.
Should I not believe my own eyes and experiences?
And I wonder what the Birminghamites at 15 and Woodward think of the "south of 16 Mile" theory? What a ghetto, huh?
I spent the first four years of my life in Detroit. My family moved to the 'burbs like everyone else in the late 1970's. I've always been a city girl at heart, but never have returned because it wasn't "safe."
I grew up in Livonia, near the Plymouth border in the 1970's until 1990 when I moved to Ann Arbor for college. Both times, in Livonia and Ann Arbor, I was living *gasp* south of 16 Mile Road. Both areas were beautiful, clean, and safe. Ann Arbor was much more diverse than my upbringing in Livonia obviously I enjoyed the diversity at the University of Michigan...it was nice to learn about other cultures, races, ethnicities, etc.
When I moved to Milford area after college from 1996-2000, I lived *gasp* south of 16 Mile (I was closer to 12 mile actually). It was safe, beautiful, but boringly mostly all-white.
Currently, I live near 19 Mile Road in Utica area. It is not much different honestly than growing up in Livonia as a kid. It's mostly white, but it's neat because we have more diversity such as Thai, Indian, Caldean, African-American, Eastern European, Hispanic, etc. in my neighborhood. It makes for great diversity...and well, it's more fun Great food too!
I'm moving to Orange County, CA...near the ocean in the next year...that is the goal I know it's mostly white, but I enjoy the Hispanic culture and can't wait to learn more
I always thought it was that you should live north of 8 Mile LOL But, then, you couldn't live in wonderful Ferndale...I love that town...it rocks
Back in the day, pre-1968 race riots in Detroit, it was the 'in' thing to live in Detroit proper. I love the architecture of the old homes in Detroit...some areas have been rennovated and kept nicely...It is so cool to see those 1920-1940's homes. I'd like to see the rebirth of Detroit...It may not happen in my life time or well, before I move to CA, but I pray for it every day
Yippee! Passing on the racial hatred to the coming generation...how sweet.
Therein lies the answer why things haven't changed - parochial inbreeding for generations.
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), I have become somewhat of a nerd when it comes to learning about the Metro area. Besides city-data, I accumulated tons of info on the area before we ever moved here. In addition to that, I read all the local papers now and am the sort of person who follows local news. Plus, we have now lived here almost a year, so I can add a year's worth of personal experience to this as well.
I enjoyed the diversity at the University of Michigan...it was nice to learn about other cultures, races, ethnicities, etc. 
