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African-American males were given the right to vote in 1865...145 years ago.
Well that was 1870, but then came Jim Crow laws that made sure that blacks wouldn't be able to vote through taxes, tests and other regulations. Also, there was the small detail that you might get your ass kicked if you showed up to vote until the voting rights act in 1965, 95 years later after they got those earlier "rights."
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Originally Posted by us66
What about Thurgood Marshall, nominated by Lyndon Johnson?
You're right, Marshall was 50 yrs ago nominated by Lyndon Johnson, Thomas was the 2nd 20 yrs ago.
You guys are brushing me up on my history... if it wasn't for Lyndon Johnson, blacks might still be looking for a couple firsts.
If Detroit is setting aside contracts favoring black-owned companies in an 80%+ black city, then do who do you think is getting considered in majority white cities? How many majority white cities are there in America?
Oh I don't know, maybe the lowest bidder who can show that he's able to complete the job on time and on budget? Perhaps you can show me the contract in a majority white city that says the contract will only be awarded to a company that is majority-owned by European-Americans and that employs a certain percentage of European-Amercans?
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If just 50 years ago blacks were granted the right to vote, 20 years ago the first black supreme court justice was appointed (of 2 out of 112) and the first black president was named two years ago, I'd still say we have a ways before we said "everybody's got the same opportunities."
Black people don't have the opporuity to go to law school, graduate and practice law because not enough blacks were appointed to the Supreme Court? I'm not following your point here. Somehow a black perrson can't be a lawyer like a white guy can because of their race?
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If Sarah Palin was a fine black woman with a journalism degree, could she have become mayor of Wasilla? Governor of any state (Have there been any black female governors before)? Candidate for vice president of the United States? The opportunities are way more abundant for whites than blacks still.
Sorry but the President of the United States is black. The President. The argument that black people do not have equal opportunity because white people won't vote for them will never again hold water. Ever. If there is any bigotry to behold in today's politics it's the fact that over 90% of black voters voted for the black guy. If white people voted the way black people voted in that election the white guy would have won. I'd vote for the black candidate if he was a Republican and the white guy was a Democrat. There are plenty of black candidates I'd vote for, and I'd vote for them based on their political philosophy, not their race.
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Blacks are behind the eightball... they come from a history of poverty and being 2nd to the party for darn near everything... that's a legacy that's not easy to overcome in a country that's majority white. So if you think everything is even now just because of affirmative action consider that whites have been getting affirmative action their whole lives. There was a time when if you were black it didn't matter what your credentials were, you weren't going to be considered. And that still goes on today, waaaaay more than the opposite goes on here in Detroit.
Specifics please.
Here's how to overcome the "legacy". Don't have kids you can't afford, don't have kids until you get married, when you do have kids, make them go to school and do their homework. If you do get divorced after having kids, put your kids before yourself and support them until they graduate high school (at least). Don't hang around people who have succumbed to the culture that promotes doing the opposite of every single thing I listed above and don't allow your kids to either. My five step method to overcome a legacy of poverty. One generation will have to work harder than the following generation in this plan.
The list is pretty much the same for immigrants except I add "Learn how to speak and read the English language."
"Oh I don't know, maybe the lowest bidder who can show that he's able to complete the job on time and on budget? Perhaps you can show me the contract in a majority white city that says the contract will only be awarded to a company that is majority-owned by European-Americans and that employs a certain percentage of European-Amercans?"
Are you going to show me the minority set aside contracts that favor black owned companies from Detroit that you're talking about?
"Black people don't have the opporuity to go to law school, graduate and practice law because not enough blacks were appointed to the Supreme Court? I'm not following your point here. Somehow a black perrson can't be a lawyer like a white guy can because of their race?"
Of course they do and can... my point is that MANY black people have done all of those things and only 2 out of 112 Supreme Court Justices have been black. That means out 112 times a SCJ was chosen, there have TWO times that the president thought the most qualified candidate was black... hell those were probably the only two times people even considered a black person for the job.
"Sorry but the President of the United States is black. The President. The argument that black people do not have equal opportunity because white people won't vote for them will never again hold water. Ever. If there is any bigotry to behold in today's politics it's the fact that over 90% of black voters voted for the black guy. If white people voted the way black people voted in that election the white guy would have won. I'd vote for the black candidate if he was a Republican and the white guy was a Democrat. There are plenty of black candidates I'd vote for, and I'd vote for them based on their political philosophy, not their race."
You ignored my question, but yes, the president is black. He's also half white too just in case you forgot. If you are going to infer black people voted for him because he's black are you going to also say many white people didn't vote for him because he was black? Are you going to infer white people voted for him because his mother was white? Maybe people actually voted for him because he seemed like a better person to run the country?? Maybe because McCain was already a 2 time loser and no one liked him? Maybe people voted for him because they didn't want Palin to be close to ever doing anything representing this country?
"Specifics please."
My sister and another white doctor applied for the same pathology job. She passed both tests in two different areas of pathology and the other doctor passed one and failed the other. Want to take a guess who got the job? This happened in a Detroit University where according to your rules "blacks who test lower" get jobs over those who are more qualified and race and "diversity" decide who gets hired. Didn't quite happen that time.
"Here's how to overcome the "legacy". Don't have kids you can't afford, don't have kids until you get married, when you do have kids, make them go to school and do their homework. If you do get divorced after having kids, put your kids before yourself and support them until they graduate high school (at least). Don't hang around people who have succumbed to the culture that promotes doing the opposite of every single thing I listed above and don't allow your kids to either. My five step method to overcome a legacy of poverty. One generation will have to work harder than the following generation in this plan."
I see you have all the fixes for black poverty there. You must have grown up poor right?
Are you going to show me the minority set aside contracts that favor black owned companies from Detroit that you're talking about?
I don't have time to obtain the actual contracts for you, but if you're in that much denial about it that what I said is not a "given", you can start here and do your own research:
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The following are the 10 largest Detroit-based or minority-owned business contracts awarded in the Detroit Public Schools' $1.5 billion building program.
* Jenkins Construction Inc., Detroit: $103.1 million for work on Cass Technical High School and Law Elementary School. Company owned by James Jenkins.
* White Construction, Detroit: $70.4 million for building the William Beckham Academy. Owned by W. Bernard White.
* L.S. Brinker/Skanska USA: $66 million to manage construction on the Detroit High School for the Fine and Performing Arts. Partnershi
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Of course they do and can... my point is that MANY black people have done all of those things and only 2 out of 112 Supreme Court Justices have been black. That means out 112 times a SCJ was chosen, there have TWO times that the president thought the most qualified candidate was black... hell those were probably the only two times people even considered a black person for the job.
So both times a black person was considered, they were picked? When was the last time a white guy was elected mayor of Detroit? Council? Have you ever watched a Detroit City Council or School Board meeting when isssues of race come up?
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You ignored my question, but yes, the president is black. He's also half white too just in case you forgot. If you are going to infer black people voted for him because he's black are you going to also say many white people didn't vote for him because he was black?
I'm sure there were white people who didn't vote for him because he was black. But not in nearly the same proportion of black voters who voted for him based only on race. Where does the real bigotry there lie?
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"Specifics please."
My sister and another white doctor applied for the same pathology job. She passed both tests in two different areas of pathology and the other doctor passed one and failed the other. Want to take a guess who got the job? This happened in a Detroit University where according to your rules "blacks who test lower" get jobs over those who are more qualified and race and "diversity" decide who gets hired. Didn't quite happen that time.
Was it a civil service type job where there was a formula for hiring based on test scores and other factors where the rules said that separate lists for each racial and gender specific groups would be established? What were the other factors used in deciding who to hire? Experience? Who did the hiring? A board? Individual? Were their interviews? Background investigations? References?
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I see you have all the fixes for black poverty there. You must have grown up poor right?
Did my proposed fixes seem unreasonable? If so, why? I grew up lower middle class. Our family did without things so that the kids could be property educated. My mom got a lot of our clothes at garage sales. We certainly weren't "poor" but I wasn't getting any jobs because of my dad's connections at the country club either and none of my education was funded by grants or financial assistance. I had the benefit of parents who put a lot of effort into keeping me out of trouble and getting me through high school. I earned average to below average grades. After that it was either get a job or join the military. My parents were able to help me with most of the tuition for one year of community college. The rest I did myself but I had a decent foundation because my parents had "normal" values. Those kinds of values aren't something you get from the government. It's as simple as 2+2.
"I don't have time to obtain the actual contracts for you, but if you're in that much denial about it that what I said is not a "given", you can start here and do your own research:"
I never denied what you said. A majority black city is going to have contracts dealt out to majority black owned companies and companies based INSIDE Detroit. You say the opposite doesn't happen in majority white owned cities and I'm the one in denial?
"So both times a black person was considered, they were picked? When was the last time a white guy was elected mayor of Detroit? Council? Have you ever watched a Detroit City Council or School Board meeting when isssues of race come up?"
When was the last time a white guy ran for mayor of Detroit?? Jeffery Feiger plans to run the next time, see how far he gets then ask me that question. Yes, I have seen the council meetings... usually the council is biased towards the citizens of Detroit getting the first say for everything. The citizens of Detroit are 80% black, that's why it seems to be about race to you.
"I'm sure there were white people who didn't vote for him because he was black. But not in nearly the same proportion of black voters who voted for him based only on race. Where does the real bigotry there lie?"
Colin Powell was a Republican who voted for Obama. I guess you think he's one of that proportion of black voters too right... you're talking out of your tail here. If I hinted at the fact that white people only voted for McCain because he was white I'd be called crazy. But it's okay to say that most black people only voted for Obama because he was black? Do you think most black people would vote a black republican into office because he was black? Obviously you'd vote Joe the Plumber in the office if it meant voting Rep over Democrat. Hell Joe the Plumber could probably run for President. Barack the Plumber wouldn't even be taken seriously. He wouldn't even get on TV.
"Was it a civil service type job where there was a formula for hiring based on test scores and other factors where the rules said that separate lists for each racial and gender specific groups would be established? What were the other factors used in deciding who to hire? Experience? Who did the hiring? A board? Individual? Were their interviews? Background investigations? References?"
So these factors now matter when a black person does better than a white person on a test? I didn't see that in your theories before.
I don't understand why it's so hard to admit that blacks have to be two times as good as whites to get many of the same opportunities.
"Did my proposed fixes seem unreasonable? If so, why? I grew up lower middle class. Our family did without things so that the kids could be property educated. My mom got a lot of our clothes at garage sales. We certainly weren't "poor" but I wasn't getting any jobs because of my dad's connections at the country club either and none of my education was funded by grants or financial assistance. I had the benefit of parents who put a lot of effort into keeping me out of trouble and getting me through high school. I earned average to below average grades. After that it was either get a job or join the military. My parents were able to help me with most of the tuition for one year of community college. The rest I did myself but I had a decent foundation because my parents had "normal" values. Those kinds of values aren't something you get from the government. It's as simple as 2+2."
But it's not simple. If it were that simple it would be happening. I agree with the things you said, but they aren't fixes to black poverty. If blacks stop having kids does that get them better jobs? Better schools to go to? Better neighborhoods to grow up in? We were lucky in that we had both of our parents to teach us our values. Many black people don't. If you grow up poor you understand how hard it is to make something of yourself from nothing. If your grandparents and parents were poor... more than likely you're going to start off poor and get poor values. It's not an easy cycle to break. Many of the things I've learned in my life are from white people... if I didn't know them and they didn't tell them to me then I wouldn't have learned them. Poor black people don't have the opportunity to know or even learn from those who are well off or even doing decent.
If 50% of black people in Detroit are poor, that means many of them don't have TV's, computers, radios, cars... how do they get the information of what's going on inside their city? How many of them know about the mayor's "Detroit Works" project to reshape the city that affects them? These are the types of struggles blacks have to go through here in Detroit that "not having a baby" can't fix.
I never denied what you said. A majority black city is going to have contracts dealt out to majority black owned companies and companies based INSIDE Detroit. You say the opposite doesn't happen in majority white owned cities and I'm the one in denial?
The difference is that in the suburbs, it's illegal to say "only white-owned businesses can bid".
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When was the last time a white guy ran for mayor of Detroit?? Jeffery Feiger plans to run the next time, see how far he gets then ask me that question. Yes, I have seen the council meetings... usually the council is biased towards the citizens of Detroit getting the first say for everything. The citizens of Detroit are 80% black, that's why it seems to be about race to you.
Do you remember when the mayor of Detroit paid for legal representation for two black women who beat and robbed two white women at the fireworks? Things like that are why it seems to be about race to me. Do you think a mayor in the suburbs would do that and get away with it?
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But it's not simple. If it were that simple it would be happening.
What's so complicated about people of any race not having kids that they can't afford in order to increase the chances of a better life?
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If blacks stop having kids does that get them better jobs? Better schools to go to? Better neighborhoods to grow up in?
Well, yeah. If people of any race refrain from having kids they can't afford to support, it leads to fewer kids growing up with parents who can't raise them properly, it leads to people having more time for school and jobs and less time scrambling for daycare, it leads to more disposable income...I could go on and on. Yes, in short it DOES lead to better education, jobs, schools and neighborhoods to live in. Might not happen all at once, but it didn't happen all at once for my family either.
City's minority business program failing, report says - Chicago Breaking News (http://www.chicagobreakingnews.com/2010/05/city-ig-says-minority-and-female-owned-businesses-shorted-on-contracts.html - broken link)
So from these news accounts minorities STILL aren't getting contracts, even when there are initiatives make it happen.
"Do you remember when the mayor of Detroit paid for legal representation for two black women who beat and robbed two white women at the fireworks? Things like that are why it seems to be about race to me. Do you think a mayor in the suburbs would do that and get away with it?"
I was 8 when it happened, so I personally wouldn't remember. In the search for the details for that story I found some stuff, but nothing about the mayor paying for their attorneys.
"Well, yeah. If people of any race refrain from having kids they can't afford to support, it leads to fewer kids growing up with parents who can't raise them properly, it leads to people having more time for school and jobs and less time scrambling for daycare, it leads to more disposable income...I could go on and on. Yes, in short it DOES lead to better education, jobs, schools and neighborhoods to live in. Might not happen all at once, but it didn't happen all at once for my family either."
If somebody grows up in a ghetto, doesn't much matter if they have a kid or not. Either way they're poor... they have more time to go to school, but what kind of school? Certainly not one that will give them the skills to get a better job in the future... Sure if they didn't have kids they could go to college, but without money and with the below average skills they learned in high school they won't be in college long.
If somebody grows up in a ghetto, doesn't much matter if they have a kid or not. Either way they're poor... they have more time to go to school, but what kind of school? Certainly not one that will give them the skills to get a better job in the future... Sure if they didn't have kids they could go to college, but without money and with the below average skills they learned in high school they won't be in college long.
"If somebody grows up in a ghetto, doesn't much matter if they have a kid or not."
I think that sums up your position pretty much perfectly. Rationalize failure, don't expect success, let alone demand it, and accept the fact that multigenerational failure is inevitable. Are you serious?
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Well all I can tell you is I tried to look up "Minority Business Only Contracts" on google and the articles that came up were these:
Many minority set-aside contracts go to minorities other than African-Americans, so there is no guarantee that it would help African-Americans anyway. And many whites set up "minority owned" (wink, wink) subsidiaries as a front to take advantage of these set-aside contracts, with most of the profits being taken by the actual white super-owner. Blacks are complicit in this sleight-of-hand, it should be noted.
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