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I love the idea or a neon colored bungee cord...or heck if possible even a lock with a key...
I do think a scheual would be great, but id still never assume there going to abide by it...
it would however probably help your landlord see your trying to come to an amincable solution while still working on your dogs behavior.
I would also look up nikki iveys dog speak (shes got some vids on youtube) she works LESS with "pack behaivour" (and as someone whos worked with wolves and eral dogs/pariah dogs, I HATE that term, domestic dogs do NOT have a wolf pack behavior, their pack dynamic is MUCH different, much looser and much less structutred than a wolf pack and those methods are just simply outdated...)
and more with actual dog body language, teaching dogs how to communicate naturally using DOG language and building confidence with training that makes the dog think rather than telling them what you want.
in this case it realy sounds like a fear based reaction from a dog whos lost its confidence, and that's pretty easy to work on when we top pretending our dog are wolves (or that they "should know") stop "training" our dogs, and start TEACHIGN them to use their brains and think.
Three Wolves, sorry you're having these problems. I can't add to much of what good people have already suggested here--schedules, bungee, a dog teacher with patience, find another place to live--but I do want to say that I don't think talking to the neighbors will do much good. They have no social skills (which is also probably why the guy didn't mention the event to you right after it happened). That's why I doubt the bungee or a laminated sign etc. would help. You're a reasonable person, and expect others to act rationally. But some don't. Your neighbors don't seem to "read signs" from people or dogs, literally or figuratively, or they do, but they don't react appropriately. Chances are they may be from an area where they weren't used to having any neighbors. We've had such neighbors ourselves years ago when we lived in an apartment, and it was like living with bears in the building. But you can't dictate their lives, you can just get out from under. Good luck.
I'm also holding on to what you said that if they hadn't reported it by now, they aren't going to. I haven't heard a thing all day...so I'm going to calm down a bit. I've been apprehensive all day wondering if there was going to be a knock at the door by the neighbor police....so far, nothing.
You're doing what I do all the time. Walk it back. I take things like this and blow it out of proportion, picture the worst-case scenario and then just OBSESS over it. I have made myself miserable countless times over things like this. My (now deceased) border collie got into a 2-second skirmish and drew blood on a younger dog he took a sudden dislike to. It was nothing, and both dogs were leashed, but the other dog had a small puncture wound on his ear. You would not believe the scenarios I came up with about how my dog was going to be seized and put down. I was a wreck for weeks.
As someone with severe anxiety and OCD, please let me assure you it is not worth the worry. Take up meditation
I have a loud hand held horn thing that I got when I first moved to this state because I thought it would be a good idea if we ever went exploring in the wilderness and happened upon any wild animals. It's supposed to be insanely loud, so I've never tested it. Maybe I should carry that. Certainly that would startle a dog that won't stop coming towards us.
"He feels he can't defend himself". See, that's part of the issue here. I don't want him to feel that he has to defend himself, I want him to KNOW that I will do it. I continue to do those training exercises that the behaviorist taught me for this aggression. We do them daily..and I mean, DAILY. Every single moment with the boy is an opportunity to train, or reinforce our training.
He does fantastic in the house, he is doing really well in the yard...I mean, I never thought I could break him from a distracting squirrel, but he does respond to me, and come to me, when I call him back. He does have a high prey drive, and in the past, he would lock on, not lose focus, and I didn't exist. I never believed the behaviorist when he said I could train my dog to come back to me even when he got focused on an animal like a squirrel.
Well, the behaviorist was right, and while it certainly did not happen overnight, (My God the amount of work that took), he does now come back to me. I've done something right there. Now, if I could just get that same reaction when he sees another dog, we'd be on the road to recovery.
I've never owned an aggressive dog before, this is all new territory for me.
I wouldn't use the handheld horn- using the horn will frighten him too and likely cause another negative association to other dogs. What you want is to make other dogs a non-issue for your boy and create a good association for him so that when he sees another dog he automatically looks at you for something awesome.
Leslie McDevitt has a wonderful book called Control Unleashed with some excellent exercises in it. I particularly like the "look at that" game.
I think somewhere you mentioned he wasn't food oriented? Walk and "work" him on an empty stomach- you aren't withholding food, you are just controlling the food and giving it when another dog is around.
You need to re-wire your dog's thinking about other dogs. Dog owners often think that the dog needs to focus only on them- thus so many use a watch or look at me command, but with a dog that is fearful, they should be allowed to look at whatever frightens them. Then give them their favorite treat. So, the routine is: let your dog look at a dog a block away- when he glances at the dog, click (if you use clicker) then give favorite treat. The dog slowly learns that seeing another dog = yummy treats happening AND that it is ok to look.
Your dog is taking his cue from you- in all likelihood, when you see another dog you tense up- that telegraphs down the leash. Allowing your dog to look freely at another dog, all the while treating like crazy, will also give you something positive to do instead of freezing or tensing up- both of which will cause your dog anxiety.
You are right- this takes time and patience. I've been there. Going back to the Look at That game- one of the things I did with my psychotic reactive little cattle dog was to put her in the car every night at dinner time (so she was hungry) and drive her to the local park. We would sit there next to the car and wait for another dog to show up with its owner. As soon as she saw the other dog I would give her a nice big chunk of raw beef heart (she was also on raw at the time). Then no other treats until another dog showed up- again, another big piece of beef heart. Then back into the car and home. She slowly came to learn that other dogs = awesome food for her. She ate her dinner this way for about a year- at the park and only when another dog was around. Rinse and repeat, allowing for multiple exposures in different environments e.g. eventually sitting outside the dog park and doing this exercise. When I first got her I would literally come home and cry my eyes out and question if I had done the right thing in adopting her. It took 2 years of hard consistent work with her, but then it was like a switch flipped on for her. She got her Canine Good Citizen last year and totally rocked the test in a roomful of other people and dogs. I tell you this because there is hope- and as you know it is hard work.
Another excellent resource is fearfuldogs.com. Debbie- the trainer- has some excellent videos on the site. I really can't recommend this site enough. She worked through a lot of fear issues with her own dog, so you will get good first hand advice.
There is also an awesome Yahoo group on fearful dogs- I will look for the link.
In the meantime, while you work on this, don't allow your dog off-leash (you know this at this point). Keep working the program. Keep your dog safe by not putting him into situations he can't handle. This may mean walking him at odd hours when other dogs aren't likely to be out. You are to be commended for being so committed to helping your boy. The recall work you have done with him to get him to leave a squirrel to come back to you is awesome- you have clearly had some good guidance from your behaviorist.
Three Wolves, sorry you're having these problems. I can't add to much of what good people have already suggested here--schedules, bungee, a dog teacher with patience, find another place to live--but I do want to say that I don't think talking to the neighbors will do much good. They have no social skills (which is also probably why the guy didn't mention the event to you right after it happened). That's why I doubt the bungee or a laminated sign etc. would help. You're a reasonable person, and expect others to act rationally. But some don't. Your neighbors don't seem to "read signs" from people or dogs, literally or figuratively, or they do, but they don't react appropriately. Chances are they may be from an area where they weren't used to having any neighbors. We've had such neighbors ourselves years ago when we lived in an apartment, and it was like living with bears in the building. But you can't dictate their lives, you can just get out from under. Good luck.
Thanks. Today I was just mad all day, and for what you said, I would think people could act rationally, and despite how many years I've witnessed people doing the exact opposite, for some reason it still ticks me off when it affects me somehow.
But yeah, "get out from under it", I think, is the best solution. Just going to take a few months, but eventually, I'll find somewhere that doesn't have neighbors...especially idiotic ones.
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Originally Posted by twelvepaw
I wouldn't use the handheld horn- using the horn will frighten him too and likely cause another negative association to other dogs.
Well, that's true. I meant only if we were being threatened. That has happened before. I got lucky that the dog didn't call MY bluff.
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What you want is to make other dogs a non-issue for your boy and create a good association for him so that when he sees another dog he automatically looks at you for something awesome.
Yep, as stated in response to another poster, what I'm still trying to find is the "gold" treat that he will like. Haven't found it yet. I also need to figure out how to do it with some other way besides touch or voice because once he's ticked off, I can't be heard, and when he's in that state, touching is not always a good idea...unless I do the Cesar Milan way and touch his hindquarters with my foot...which doesn't always work.
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Leslie McDevitt has a wonderful book called Control Unleashed with some excellent exercises in it. I particularly like the "look at that" game.
I think somewhere you mentioned he wasn't food oriented? Walk and "work" him on an empty stomach- you aren't withholding food, you are just controlling the food and giving it when another dog is around.
Oh he's food oriented all right...but when there's another dog with nothing between him and that dog, it's as if nothing else in the world exists.
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You need to re-wire your dog's thinking about other dogs. Dog owners often think that the dog needs to focus only on them- thus so many use a watch or look at me command, but with a dog that is fearful, they should be allowed to look at whatever frightens them. Then give them their favorite treat. So, the routine is: let your dog look at a dog a block away- when he glances at the dog, click (if you use clicker) then give favorite treat. The dog slowly learns that seeing another dog = yummy treats happening AND that it is ok to look.
INTERESTING! I will try this! Because getting him to look at me is like impossible when he's in that state. This might actually work!
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Your dog is taking his cue from you- in all likelihood, when you see another dog you tense up- that telegraphs down the leash. Allowing your dog to look freely at another dog, all the while treating like crazy, will also give you something positive to do instead of freezing or tensing up- both of which will cause your dog anxiety.
Nope, I don't. I've read enough, watched enough videos, I make a point to be as relaxed as possible. The only time I tighten the leash is when he starts trying to take off to the other dog. Then of course I have to hold it tight...he's 46 pounds of muscle.
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You are right- this takes time and patience. I've been there. Going back to the Look at That game- one of the things I did with my psychotic reactive little cattle dog was to put her in the car every night at dinner time (so she was hungry) and drive her to the local park. We would sit there next to the car and wait for another dog to show up with its owner. As soon as she saw the other dog I would give her a nice big chunk of raw beef heart (she was also on raw at the time). Then no other treats until another dog showed up- again, another big piece of beef heart. Then back into the car and home. She slowly came to learn that other dogs = awesome food for her. She ate her dinner this way for about a year- at the park and only when another dog was around. Rinse and repeat, allowing for multiple exposures in different environments e.g. eventually sitting outside the dog park and doing this exercise.
Wow...GREAT idea! I really, really, really, really, really like this idea. Fantastic, I can't thank you enough. It would be much easier that way. God, where have you been? I needed you three years ago.
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When I first got her I would literally come home and cry my eyes out and question if I had done the right thing in adopting her. It took 2 years of hard consistent work with her, but then it was like a switch flipped on for her. She got her Canine Good Citizen last year and totally rocked the test in a roomful of other people and dogs. I tell you this because there is hope- and as you know it is hard work.
I know exactly what you mean. My boy and his sister were dumped out in to traffic with another of their siblings when they were three months old, to be hit and killed by cars. One of them did get hit and killed. I got the other two. I contacted a friend who worked in a rescue and agreed to foster them for a few weeks while their current dogs were in quarantine, (for adoption). The little snots wormed their way in to my heart. They have been pretty good, but after that incident he had with the Golden, and his demeanor changed, and the work and money, and embarrassments, and now this incident...yeah, I know what you mean. By the way, they are part border collie, part black lab. Tell me that isn't a handful.
Congratulations on the Canine Good Citizen...I can't even imagine that there could come a day when the boy could be in a room with other dogs and not have a fit. Maybe with your car idea....man I love that idea.
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Another excellent resource is fearfuldogs.com. Debbie- the trainer- has some excellent videos on the site. I really can't recommend this site enough. She worked through a lot of fear issues with her own dog, so you will get good first hand advice.
Cool, thanks. I was watching some of Suzanne Clothier yesterday. She made some good points, but her videos weren't the full seminars or classes so I didn't get to know the meat of it all...but good points nonetheless.
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There is also an awesome Yahoo group on fearful dogs- I will look for the link.
In the meantime, while you work on this, don't allow your dog off-leash (you know this at this point). Keep working the program. Keep your dog safe by not putting him into situations he can't handle. This may mean walking him at odd hours when other dogs aren't likely to be out. You are to be commended for being so committed to helping your boy. The recall work you have done with him to get him to leave a squirrel to come back to you is awesome- you have clearly had some good guidance from your behaviorist.
Thank you. The behaviorist I hired was amazing. I just can't continue to afford him. Wish I could, because this could have been done and over with some time ago...but I saw some instant results, some results that took a couple of weeks, and then some results took much, much longer, but everything he said, so far, he was right. So when he tells me that the LAST thing my dog needs to do is walk in a class room full of dogs, (I actually wondered this way back when), or in a dog park with a muzzle, then I believe him. But sitting in a car, just outside the park....I think that can work. I can't wait to try it, to be honest. Plus, it just adds more to our one on one time that each dog gets with me.
Thank you for your post. It was extremely helpful.
You're doing what I do all the time. Walk it back. I take things like this and blow it out of proportion, picture the worst-case scenario and then just OBSESS over it. I have made myself miserable countless times over things like this. My (now deceased) border collie got into a 2-second skirmish and drew blood on a younger dog he took a sudden dislike to. It was nothing, and both dogs were leashed, but the other dog had a small puncture wound on his ear. You would not believe the scenarios I came up with about how my dog was going to be seized and put down. I was a wreck for weeks.
As someone with severe anxiety and OCD, please let me assure you it is not worth the worry. Take up meditation
The landlord didn't help. What she wrote in her email to me before I even knew what the heck was going on was really what got me all up about it. I should know better, she fricken overreacts about everything, and while of course this is serious, the way she worded her email was total reactionary, panic, and pretty rude, to be honest.
Like....lady, I don't even know what the heck is going on because no one said a thing to me, even when I saw them!
Anyway, this will blow over. I'm just going through all the emotions yesterday and today. Like I said, today was my extreme anger phase...tomorrow, I'll just deal. So much good advice given between your post and some other posts on here...so. much. fantastic. advice. Thanks to those of you who offered it.
T-
Cool, thanks. I was watching some of Suzanne Clothier yesterday. She made some good points, but her videos weren't the full seminars or classes so I didn't get to know the meat of it all...but good points nonetheless.
Tawzer Dog has a subscription video service for dog training videos. Just like Blockbuster but for dog training Subscriptions run from about $9-20/month. Most of the videos they sell they will also rent. You can rent seminars and training videos by almost all the reputable trainers and behaviorists, e.g. Clothier, McConnell, Dodman, Sue Sternberg, Pat Miller, Ken Ramirez, Dunbar, etc.
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