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Get a new trainer. Your trainer should be walking your dog with a pack.
Walk your dog on leash. Assume some responsibility. Leaving a fear aggressive dog running loose in a common space is irresponsible.
If your dog is off leash, you must be in sight of him and he must be under voice control.
Do you get this from Cesar Millan? As he is the only one I can think of that recommends walking in a pack to fix problems and if you are seeing him do it one his show, he is not talking a dog such as the ops and walking them in a pack and wow instant fix. They edit a lot out for his show. I know some one who actually had him help with their dog years ago and they were not impressed. Most people that have actually studied behavior and hold a PHD in it do not recommend what you are suggesting instead they are more in the lines of what Twelvepaw is saying as it is important to build a positive relationship with other dogs so they see a dog and think something good is about to happen/ IE.. that other dogs equal good things and it takes baby steps and a long time to achieve that not flooding the dog while it is fearful. dogs like people tend to shut down from stress when they are fearful thus the dog not taking a treat means it is too stressed. That is why distance is important and then slowly moving closer and stopping at the point where the dog is stressed. If you go too far too soon game over the dog is just too stressed to cope and you back off until the stress level comes down.
My behaviorist also said that once a dog has an out burst call it a day as that outburst caused the release of stress hormones and chemicals in the brain so it will take even less to have another outburst. It takes hours to regain the calm state of the brain and all those hormones/ chemicals to return to normal.
There is a page on Facebook called DINOS ( Dogs In Need of Space) that may be worth looking at.
My behaviorist also said that once a dog has an out burst call it a day as that outburst caused the release of stress hormones and chemicals in the brain so it will take even less to have another outburst. It takes hours to regain the calm state of the brain and all those hormones/ chemicals to return to normal.
Yes, once a dog has gone over threshold it will be more sensitive/reactive to stimuli for at least several hours depending on how severe the exposure was. In highly stressed dogs, t takes at least 72 hours for hormone levels-specifically cortisol- to return to normal levels. This is why- ideally- best practice is for shelters to give dog 3 days to settle in and feel safe before it does a temperament test.
@DCForever-
Deliberately putting a dog into a situation it can't handle is counter-productive and unnecessary. Will flooding "work" in some situations? Yes, but then it would be reasonable to question whether the dog is suppressing its fear or is still afraid but trying to cope. Flooding an animal does not "cure" anything and more often causes more issues by suppressing them- not good. I can't think of any situation in which flooding would be a better practice than counter-conditioning and/or desensitization. When I look at a new technique or method I always ask myself "will doing this damage my relationship with my dog"? My relationship with my dog is paramount- I want him partnered with me, not forced by me into doing something.
forcing a reactive dog into a "pack" situation of ANY kind (walk or otherwise) would just end tragically.
ANY trainer putting a reactive dog into apack walk is an IDIOT...you cannot control a reactive dog AND a pack full of other dogs (no matter how well behaved they are)
Milans methods are DANGEROUS and HIGHLY edited and should NEVER be attempted by anyone at home.
hes done more damage than good in the dog training community and a lot of long term revies show dog not only reverting to their previous behavours but getting worse because milans methods (least when I used to catch his show) didn't teach the dog coping mechanisms it just taught them that displaying WARNING behaviours would get them hit, or hissed at so they stop Warning and ismply start reacting.
in this case the dog needs socialization in SMALL amounts and ONLY with quite calm confident dogs, 1 on 1 in a controlled but calm environment, he needs to be exposed to dogs with GOOD signals, dogs who know how to react to these behaviours because they've been in the hands of humans that have allowed them to retain their own language and BE DOGS...
never ever stick a dog reactive dog in an unfamiliar pack dynamic, itll end messy, place an incredible amount of stress on the dog, an incredible amount of stress on the pack (and can you imagine what a pack dynamic could do to an aggressive newcomer?!) and an incredible amount of distrust form the dog on the handler...the dog needs to know the handler ha control of the situation so it doesn't HAVE to react and that impossible to maintain in a pack situation.
Do you get this from Cesar Millan? As he is the only one I can think of that recommends walking in a pack to fix problems and if you are seeing him do it one his show, he is not talking a dog such as the ops and walking them in a pack and wow instant fix. They edit a lot out for his show. I know some one who actually had him help with their dog years ago and they were not impressed. Most people that have actually studied behavior and hold a PHD in it do not recommend what you are suggesting instead they are more in the lines of what Twelvepaw is saying as it is important to build a positive relationship with other dogs so they see a dog and think something good is about to happen/ IE.. that other dogs equal good things and it takes baby steps and a long time to achieve that not flooding the dog while it is fearful. dogs like people tend to shut down from stress when they are fearful thus the dog not taking a treat means it is too stressed. That is why distance is important and then slowly moving closer and stopping at the point where the dog is stressed. If you go too far too soon game over the dog is just too stressed to cope and you back off until the stress level comes down.
My behaviorist also said that once a dog has an out burst call it a day as that outburst caused the release of stress hormones and chemicals in the brain so it will take even less to have another outburst. It takes hours to regain the calm state of the brain and all those hormones/ chemicals to return to normal.
There is a page on Facebook called DINOS ( Dogs In Need of Space) that may be worth looking at.
I have a fear aggressive rescue dog that I have been working with for six months. I walk him twice a week with a professional trainer who deals with aggressive dogs. The pack is between 6 and 12 dog depending on who is walking that day and virtually all the dogs were problem dogs to begin with. The change in my dog is dramatic. He is much calmer and has begun to learn how to meet and socialize with other dogs. He won't ever be "cured" but he and I now know each other well enough that I can predict and even head off situations that would provoke a fear based attack. If he has been walked successfully with a dog, he no longer has any fear and hence no aggression toward that dog.
Our approach is the exactly the opposite of your "behaviorist." If my dog and another become aggressive we separate the two dog and calm them. We the reintroduce them and walk them on close leash until they calm down. By the end of the walk they have always end up licking each other's snouts. IMO separating the two after a dust up would just cement in your dog's mind that the other dog is dangerous. That will make socialization harder the next time. It's analogous to getting back on a horse immediately if you get thrown.
Most people with PHDs who are saying don't socialize fear aggressive dogs with other dogs are pretty stupid IMO.
No TV shows just real life. If I hadn't taken my dog he would likely have been euthanize.
The owner should have always had her aggressive dog under control that means doing whatever it took to prevent the dog from attacking another. There are muzzles that they dog would not have chewed and I would have the dog on a pinch collar and be walking him for his exercise rather than letting him run free. Putting up a sign? Seriously, not the best idea in the first place since the problem was not other dogs but her aggressive dog and that had to be dealt with and not by avoiding other dogs.
forcing a reactive dog into a "pack" situation of ANY kind (walk or otherwise) would just end tragically.
ANY trainer putting a reactive dog into apack walk is an IDIOT...you cannot control a reactive dog AND a pack full of other dogs (no matter how well behaved they are)
If one introduced a fear aggressive dog to a pack that way it would be idiotic. In my experience, it's not how it's done. You seem to know more about this than the people who make a living actually doing it so I'll just leave you with your preconceived notion.
actually I did make a living at it at one point...I also made a living at pack dynamics in a zoo with actual wolves (and hyena and African wild/painted dogs) unfortunately a head injury and some other health issues forced me to "retire"
dogs are not wolves...and should not be treated as such. their dynamic within a pack is COMPELTLY different...
im glad this method worked for your dog, but ive personally seen that type of "training" go very bad very quickly (and thankfully not on my watch) more times than its been sucesfull.
I have however seen severly fear reactive dogs completely turned around using calm composed one on one dog interaction in a safe environment, with dogs who have a clue and haven't been forced to speak whatever language humans think wolves speak and therefore domestic dogs should also speak.
actually I did make a living at it at one point...I also made a living at pack dynamics in a zoo with actual wolves (and hyena and African wild/painted dogs) unfortunately a head injury and some other health issues forced me to "retire"
dogs are not wolves...and should not be treated as such. their dynamic within a pack is COMPELTLY different...
im glad this method worked for your dog, but ive personally seen that type of "training" go very bad very quickly (and thankfully not on my watch) more times than its been successful.
I have however seen severly fear reactive dogs completely turned around using calm composed one on one dog interaction in a safe environment, with dogs who have a clue and haven't been forced to speak whatever language humans think wolves speak and therefore domestic dogs should also speak.
Dogs are not wolves. Both dogs and wolves naturally form packs. I have no experience with wolves. I do with dogs. I wouldn't try to generalize from dogs to wolves. Hopefully you won't generalize from wolves to dogs. That would be a gross conceptual error.
My experience is that socializing a fear aggressive dog with a single other dog doesn't transfer to the dog's fear of other dogs. My dog was severely fear aggressive, but had 3-4 dogs that he was completely relaxed with. One on one socialization just taught him that some dogs didn't represent a threat. He still viewed unknown dogs as threats.
Introducing a dog to a trained pack isn't like throwing a three year old into a swimming poor and telling him, "Sink or swim." If you truly understand dog group dynamics, you'll understand that a pack has a behavior that can be much calmer than that of any single dog. The introduction of a new dog to the pack is a gradual process and at the end you have a dog that is socialized with a group of dogs not a dog that is socialized with a single dog.
Because the pack changes composition from walk to walk, my dog is constantly introduced to new dogs. The benefit of the pack is that my dog now understands that the pack is peaceful and the energy of the pack influences both dogs. There are occasional problems with individual dogs. We deal with those as mistakes that are corrected real time and then the walk continues with both dogs corrected and behaving. The dogs end the walk on a success not failure. That builds their self confidence.
An interesting dynamic is that the pack animals tend to ignore or even shun dogs that are acting aggressively. That is a huge advantage of using a pack, dogs want to belong to the pack and will modify their behavior to fit in.
Most of this "dogs are not wolves" is just based upon ignorance of dog group dynamics. Good trainers aren't treating dog like wolves. They recognize and facilitate the pack forming nature of dogs.
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