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Okay, so my husband and I traveled to LA last weekend to pick up a sweet little Keeshond-mix (best guess is that one parent was a Pomeranian). I have started two threads about my experience so far: To Crate or Not to Crate: That is the Question! and Big dilemma concerning dog rescue experience. For anyone here who may have seen and posted on those threads, this thread pertains to that same little dog.
Some background on me and my experience with dogs... Since 1977 (but prior to last weekend), I have owned five dogs: 2 American Cocker Spaniels (both purchased as puppies), 2 Collies (one purchased as a puppy, the other rescued as an adult), and 1 Golden Retriever (rescued as an adult). So, while I may not have had as much experience as some of you, I'm not a total novice either. I expected to have to housebreak the puppies. The adult rescues were both housebroken when I got them. I was told by the lady who was fostering my new Keeshond that he was both crate trained and housebroken. I have since learned that he is absolutely not housebroken. I suspect she probably kept him crated about 20 hours per day. This is just a guess, but I feel pretty certain that I'm right. Naturally, he'd have gone outside if he was let out of his crate after six to eight hours of being locked up and taken straight to the backyard. Maybe she'd give him an hour or so of play time after each pottying, but being "empty" by then, he never really did learn that outside, not inside, is the place to go.
I have discovered that he is has a high degree of separation anxiety and wants to be right next to either me or my husband all of the time he is out of his crate (which is most of the time). If we're not active (for instance, if we're watching TV, are on the computer or are balancing our checkbook or reading), he simply lies down on the floor beside us and is completely content. If the person he's with gets up to go in the other room, though, he's on his feet immediately, and following them to wherever they go. When we take him outside to "Go potty!" he generally just stands there as if he doesn't have the foggiest notion of what is expected of him. We have been keeping him on a leash when we're outside for that purpose, even though we have a fairly good-sized, fenced yard. We want him to recognize that he's only supposed to go potty in one corner of the yard and that he's out there for one reason only, and it's not to play. We say, "Go potty!" and wait for him to do his thing. We wait, and wait, and wait, and wait. If he goes (either #1 or #2), we praise him and immediately (i.e. within a couple of seconds) offer him a treat. If, after ten or fifteen minutes, he hasn't gone, we take him back inside and try again a couple of hours later.
So far (we've had him for five days), he has peed three times in the living room. Since I didn't witness the act, I didn't punish him or even call the spot to his attention. I simply cleaned it up with one of those products intended to neutralize the odor, and figured it was my fault for not being more diligent in watching him. He has pooped every day, but most of the times, it has been when we're out for our daily walk. In each of these cases, I've picked up the poop and have brought it back home with me and deposited it on the lawn where I want him to go. He appears not to have even noticed it there. He doesn't even sniff at it when I get him in the vicinity. He seems to only be inclined to poop when he's being exercised. When we just take him out to "Go potty!" he just pees, if he does anything at all.
We've started putting him in his crate now every time we're going to be away from home for even fifteen or twenty minutes. (Before we realized he wasn't actually housebroken, we'd only crate him if we were going to be gone for a couple of hours at a time, which wasn't often.) But, the first two times that he peed in the living room, it was when no one was home with him for about a half an hour. I suspect those two times were due to separation anxiety. The third time was this evening, immediately after a couple of relatives dropped by unexpectedly to see him for the first time. He was as excited as could be to see him (he's extremely friendly and outgoing) but calmed down pretty well once they sat down an started visiting with us. They stayed less than a half an hour. The few minutes immediately after they left was just about the only time he's been out of his crate without being right with us. During those few minutes, he peed again. It had been only about an hour since I'd had him outside to "Go potty!" and he hadn't gone.
And when it comes to pooping, today is the only day since we got him that we haven't taken him for a walk. It's also the only day that he hasn't pooped all day. He seems to have to go only when being exercised, but I don't want to have to take him for a walk around the neighborhood in order to get him to poop.
I realize that I'm really just rambling, but it's only been five days and I'm at my wits end. He is clearly very attached to us, and I think he'd like to please us. He just doesn't seem to have a clue what we want. It's like he's waiting for us to be out of sight so that he can go inside and is almost avoiding going outside. Any suggestions would be much appreciated.
I think you need a little more time. My Shar Pei mix was instantaneous in potty training, but that is a breed trait. In the real world, the first few days with our fosters and our other two rescues all had accidents, and one or two accidents the second week, then they were consistent about potting outside.
Given your background, I am assuming you are praising for pottying outside - six years later with my three, we still praise for potty outside. I am also assuming the dog is being let out at regular intervals through the day to potty - at least that is what I am reading from your post.
FYI Pomeranians are notoriously hard to potty train, so you may just need to be very vigilant about correcting accidents, praising successes, and regular intervals for potty time.
I think you need a little more time. My Shar Pei mix was instantaneous in potty training, but that is a breed trait. In the real world, the first few days with our fosters and our other two rescues had accidents, and one or two accidents the second week, then they were consistent about potting outside.
Given your background, I am assuming you are praising for pottying outside - six years later with my three, we still praise for potty outside. I am also assuming the dog is being let out at regular intervals through the day to potty.
FYI Pomeranians are notoriously hard to potty train, so you may just need to be very vigilant about correcting accidents, praising successes, and regular intervals for potty time.
Thanks for your comments and encouragement. (I tend to get disappointed very easily, and I realize it.) A couple of more questions for you if you don't mind...
How frequently do you think we should be taking him out? I suspect that he may have developed a very strong bladder from all the time he spent in his crate in his foster home. He's also two years old, so past the puppy stage of not being able to "hold it" for very long. I would have thought that every three hours would be frequently enough to take him out, and when he doesn't go even after three hours, it makes me wonder if maybe that's oftener than is necessary. He gives me absolutely no clues as to when he needs to go.
Also, how long should I give him once we're outside before I assume that he really doesn't have to go? If we end up staying out there for a half hour, it almost seems to defeat the purpose -- which would be to do what he went out there for and nothing else.
Yes, I am praising him exuberantly when he does go outside, and rewarding him with a treat immediately, like within seconds of giving him the verbal praise.
Maybe I really am expecting too much too soon. I just want to know that this is going to all work out if I can just be patient.
First of all, Keeshonds were bred to be 'alert' dogs. Not guard dogs--they aren't designed to attack. Just to bark and alert their owner of a visitor. Bred to alert Dutch barge owners if a visitor was approaching. They aren't working dogs like spaniels or retrievers--their job was to stick close to their master. Not to run off into fields. So the fact that your dog is sticking close to you all the time is normal behavior for this breed.
As for the house training, I think you need to start just like this dog was a puppy. Get some puppy pads or newspaper. When you see him pee in the house, pick him up and move him to the pads. Put the pads in the living room and in the bedroom so that you can easily move him to the pads no matter where he is. Then after a week or so, reduce down to just one pad location in the house, then slowly start moving the pads closer to the back door. He needs to be using the puppy pads reliably for at least a few weeks before you take them away completely, and start expecting him to only go outside.
I don't know anyone who trains their dog to know the words "Go potty!" so I'm not sure why you expected him to know what you are shouting at him. I also don't know anyone who expect their dog to only pee in a particular part of their yard, unless that part is somehow delineated (such as a fenced dog run).
I think you are confusing him by putting the leash on him. He knows what the leash is--it means a walk. He's staring at you because he's wondering when you're going to start walking.
Pooping tends to be facilitated by walking--movement helps get things going, so to speak. So it's not surprising that he typically poops when he goes for a walk. You could facilitate it by letting him off-leash in the back yard so he can move around on his own a bit.
You haven't mentioned what kind of schedule you have the dog on, but make sure you are sticking to one, as closely as possible. Don't just take him out because you are leaving the house--if he just went to the bathroom an hour ago, he shouldn't need to go again.
Also, monitor his water intake. You didn't mention his weight, but typically the estimate is 1 oz. of water for each lb. of dog weight, per day. So a 20 lb. dog should drink about 2 1/2 cups of water a day. Nervous dogs may drink more water than usual, which may lead him to pee more than expected. Pets don't always express nervousness the way we expect--he may seem totally relaxed around you but take a few extra laps of water every time he walks by the bowl. It's only been a week so it would be normal for him to still be a bit nervous.
Last edited by MarianRavenwood; 09-02-2017 at 12:09 AM..
Thanks for your comments and encouragement. (I tend to get disappointed very easily, and I realize it.) A couple of more questions for you if you don't mind...
How frequently do you think we should be taking him out? I suspect that he may have developed a very strong bladder from all the time he spent in his crate in his foster home. He's also two years old, so past the puppy stage of not being able to "hold it" for very long. I would have thought that every three hours would be frequently enough to take him out, and when he doesn't go even after three hours, it makes me wonder if maybe that's oftener than is necessary. He gives me absolutely no clues as to when he needs to go.
Also, how long should I give him once we're outside before I assume that he really doesn't have to go? If we end up staying out there for a half hour, it almost seems to defeat the purpose -- which would be to do what he went out there for and nothing else.
Yes, I am praising him exuberantly when he does go outside, and rewarding him with a treat immediately, like within seconds of giving him the verbal praise.
Maybe I really am expecting too much too soon. I just want to know that this is going to all work out if I can just be patient.
Adult dogs should be able to hold it for four hours. But if his breeder took him out every two hours, that's what he's used to and will have the urge to pee that frequently. He will adjust to your schedule, but you need to stick to one. And not let him consume too much water.
A few minutes outside should be enough--if he has to go, he will do it right away. If he doesn't, take him back inside.
Down the road, you can train him to ring a bell to let you know when he needs to go out. But that would be after you've started with puppy pads and all of the steps above. Then you won't have to guess when he needs to go out.
Last edited by MarianRavenwood; 09-02-2017 at 12:07 AM..
"I have discovered that he is has a high degree of separation anxiety and wants to be right next to either me or my husband all of the time he is out of his crate (which is most of the time). "
I would not call that separation anxiety. Chaos has always been a dog that wants to be with me or other people if they are around. She is 50lbs but if she could have it her way she would be a lap dog If there are people around she wants to be petted and cuddled and can get pushy about it. It is like she can not get enough of it. I adopted her from a high kill shelter in Texas when she was a puppy but being I live in Calif and could not get her out in time I had to have a friend in Texas pick her up from the shelter. The shelter knew the person picking her up was not me so that was not an issue. The friend could not take her to her house as her dog would not have liked that so she took her to her vets office and they boarded her for a week then I flew to Texas to get her.
I got a call from my friend telling me what a sweet puppy she was and how she loved to have physical contact with people. Well it is 6 yrs later and Chaos has not changed she is always just feet away from me and unlike Dazzle is a very light sleeper if I get up she is right behind me. She can be a pest as I said she wants that physical connection She wants to be the center of attention," Pet me pet me" but I can get her to stop. People that visit me or that we run into when we are out are not as lucky as she will pester them none stop. I am forever hearing " wow she loves attention, she loves people".Yes she does.
All that said she does not suffer separation anxiety. When I go out and it is just the two dogs at home I do not come back to any damage to my things or my house, My neighbors say the dogs are quiet, no pooping or peeing inside not attempts to escape. She does not even get that anxious when she sees I will be leaving as she knows that means she will get a kong with treats in it and if there is one thing she loves more then attention from people it is food.
So just because a dog wants attention all the time when people are around does not mean they have separation anxiety.
I can not help with the potty training as I have been blessed that all my dogs have potty trained very fast. I also did teach them a command so when I took them out and told them go potty they do it. My dogs have tended to love food so teaching that command was easy as when they did as I asked they got a jack pot of good treats while I trained them. I did phase the treats out once they understood what I was asking. It is nice when I am in a hurry to be able to take the dogs out and give them a command and have them potty right away.
Hang in there your dog may be 2 but moving into a new home can take some time to get adjusted so accidents do happen even in a dog that is house trained.
First and most importantly, thank you for rescuing your new dog. I followed your thread about crating and held back my initial impression of the rescue/foster situation as it was not positive. Honestly, as someone active in rescue for several years I was disturbed.
When a new foster dog comes into my house I tend to take them out every 1-2 hours when possible the first day or two until I assess their housebreaking and to prevent accidents. I often take dogs that have been breeder dogs in a BYB or small puppy mill situation. Until I'm pretty sure the dog is not going to have accidents I don't leave them loose in the house when I'm gone. They go into a crate or are isolated in a separate room. As well, I do try to keep the dogs in the same room and if I notice them go off into another room I try to follow at least early on. They can very quickly eliminate in another room and be back before you notice they are gone. Tethering can help with this although I don't care for it myself. If I were in your situation (not saying you should do this, only that this is what I would do), I would focus on getting the housebreaking taken care of -big picture- and worry about fine tuning getting the dog to eliminate only in the same spot at a later time.
Keep in mind, this dog was attacked and injured just a week ago. Between that and the long travel, new home, etc., he has been through quite a bit in a short time. I like to let dogs kind of chill when they get to my home until they feel safe. Btw, have you ever heard of belly bands? They can be helpful to prevent marking or urinating in the house.
This little dog has been through a lot. Under the best of circumstances it can take a dog 4-6 months to fully settle in to their new home, so I am not surprised at all at the things you are mentioning.
It will take time for your dog to get used to your routine and expectations. Right now you need to monitor constantly when he is out of the crate, and ideally tether him to you so he can't wander off and potty. When you can't watch him like a hawk put him in his crate. If you do see him sniffing around, interrupt the behavior with a sharp ah ah and take him out.
Dogs' elimination is stimulated by exercise and smells which trigger the need to eliminate. Dogs aren't like humans- we pee once and we are done; dogs need to pee and possibly poop multiple times- another reason why even short walks are your friend. If you are taking him out into the backyard and bringing him in after he has pottied once, then you aren't giving him enough time to empty out completely. Also, if you are bringing him inside as soon as he potties, then he learns to hold it because once he does pee then the fun is over and he has to go inside again. Make sense?
I know you said you don't want to have to take him on a walk every time he goes out, but it sounds like that is what he needs. It doesn't need to be a long walk, just around the block to give him enough time to empty out. Then have a little fun play time before you go in and mission accomplished. By doing this you will probably be able to stretch out the time between walks because he is thoroughly eliminating each time. You won't need to do this forever- once he learns your routine you will be able to just let him out into the backyard, but for right now he needs you to take him on those short walks.
BTW- these walks shouldn't be tedious or a chore- they should be fun bonding time for both of you to spend quality fun time together. Make them fun- take a ball, tug, or squeaky toy with you as a fun and different reward; spend this time enjoying your new pup and getting to know him. It will pay off big time!
My dogs will not pee or poop in our yard, they have to go on a walk. They are fairly new rescues and it took a while to establish where they like to go and create their routine. Walks also establish a relationship so they are vital in building trust.
We got them in April and they were very clingy for the first months, just recently can I go upstairs and they will stay downstairs. Rescue pups generally take longer to become comfortable on their own, they need to build their confidence and it can take a while. Your his people now, give him time to be a great dog and don't expect too much too soon, he's hard a rough time and a lot of change he'll need a lot of time to adjust.
I don't know anyone who trains their dog to know the words "Go potty!" so I'm not sure why you expected him to know what you are shouting at him. I also don't know anyone who expect their dog to only pee in a particular part of their yard, unless that part is somehow delineated (such as a fenced dog run).
I think you are confusing him by putting the leash on him. He knows what the leash is--it means a walk. He's staring at you because he's wondering when you're going to start walking.
On these two points I will disagree. I trained my dog from a young age to go 'on command', so to speak. When he was a pup, whenever I took him out to the yard I would tell him to "go pee" and would praise him lavishly as soon as he did so (not during the process, but as soon as he was done). He quickly learned what the command meant, and now (at 6 years old) whenever I take him out in the morning I allow him a bit of time to run and play, then tell him "go pee" and he will stop, drop his ball, and raise his leg. btw, he also learned that "go pee again" (after he'd been playing for 10 minutes or so) meant to defecate. And he does. Every time. Saves me a heck of a lot of time in standing around and waiting...and waiting...for a dog to go whenever he chooses (a godsend when I'm pressed for time and have to catch a bus to get to work). Mind you, some breeds can be much easier to train to such commands than others, but for my dog, it was an easy teach.
I also used to leash my dog when he was a pup, whenever I would take him into the yard to go to the bathroom. Gave me some control on where I wanted him to go, and (in later years) also taught him to be flexible (i.e., he learned to go to the bathroom while on leash...something he rarely does when I take him out to play as he's always off leash, but came in very handy when I had to hire a petsitter, who wanted him to go to the bathroom while on lead). It never confused my dog at all.
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Pooping tends to be facilitated by walking--movement helps get things going, so to speak. So it's not surprising that he typically poops when he goes for a walk. You could facilitate it by letting him off-leash in the back yard so he can move around on his own a bit.
This I do agree with...motion (walking, running, playing) can stimulate bowels. When I take my dog out in the mornings and evenings, I always implement play time first before I ask him to go to the bathroom. I just find that after 5-10 minutes of playtime, he's much more willing/able to go than if I simply take him outside and expect him to defecate immediately.
Last edited by bassetluv; 09-02-2017 at 08:21 AM..
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If there are people around she wants to be petted and cuddled and can get pushy about it. It is like she can not get enough of it. I adopted her from a high kill shelter in Texas when she was a puppy but being I live in Calif and could not get her out in time I had to have a friend in Texas pick her up from the shelter. The shelter knew the person picking her up was not me so that was not an issue. The friend could not take her to her house as her dog would not have liked that so she took her to her vets office and they boarded her for a week then I flew to Texas to get her. 
