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Have you asked your trainer if she has any groomers she likes? If you like the way she works with your dog, she might have some friends/acquaintances with a similar mindset.
Regarding the flooding/desensitization/extinguishing technique, I don't think that's something that requires leaps of human-like logic,
they DO in fact base future behavior on what happened in the past .
REF Flooding: every behaviourist I've ever spoken with goes ape at the mention. I happen to personally agree as the failure to success rate is very high - plus a number of other issues can and often do develop thereafter. I see no need for it when there are far, far kinder, less punitive methods to be had.
It is certainly not something that should even be contemplated without seeking professional advice from a qualified behaviourist first. And please note that trainers and behaviourists are not one in the same - although there are some that have both qualifications.
Basing future behaviour: if you mean that a dog plots out in advance how to react in a situation, again you and I will have to agree to disagree. If you mean that a dog - when in a situation that arises in the future - falls back on previous reactions &/or strategies that he/she had found to be successful, then we're saying the same thing only differently.
Ref clicker training and treats: you need to start at home with you, the dog and treats. You feed the treats and do the clicking. Because dogs are such wonderful students of associative learning, the click becomes the treat/reward. Actual treats cease. If you'd like to familiarise yourself with clicker training, here's a good place to start.
falls back on previous reactions &/or strategies that he/she had found to be successful, then we're saying the same thing only differently.
That is what I meant. But I also mean that for some of her fearful behaviors just making her do it (with reassurance of course) really has worked well.
For example:
Nelly Days 1-4: Oh my God, you put that leash on me. You expect me to walk? I can't walk on a leash! I will collapse here on the ground and shiver and shake! I very well may die.
Me: Nelly, we're taking a nice walk together in the woods. Here, I'll walk in front of you first, so you don't think I'm chasing you. Come on. Isn't this nice? Yes, keep going. Nope, dogs don't lie down on a walk, get up. Ok, good girl, 2 minutes was enough today. Tomorrow we'll try 3.
Nelly Day 5: Oh, that leash thing again. I'm supposed to stand on my feet. And move. Yeah, that's ok. Hey, this walk smells pretty good.
Nelly Day 10 and beyond: Yippee! The leash! Oh a walk, a walk! Let's walk for 2 hours!
I'm still confused about the clicker training. She's not nervous about me touching her, and isn't afraid of grooming per se (in fact, I think I could amputate her leg without anesthesia and she wouldn't even growl or bite me). She's afraid of attention and especially touching from an Other. So if I practice the clicker training at home, is that really going to translate to being comfortable with someone else? Even if it's only the clicks and no longer treats (which she wouldn't likely accept), would she care to earn a click from a stranger? Does the groomer take over the clicking?
The trainer suggested a person to board Nelly with - hopefully I won't have to for a long time, but it's good to have an idea in mind. She also substitutes for him when he has to go away. She didn't seem to know any groomers that would be good for Nelly, but I'll ask her specifically tomorrow.
Anyway, thanks for all the suggestions. I don't mean to be argumentative, just trying to figure out how to make this all work for my Nell.
Everyone. Except that she's Miss Velcro-cuddly-how-close-can-I-possibly-get-to-you with me.
Like I said, it's not a grooming issue at all. It's just that groomers are required to pay attention to and touch the dogs they are grooming, and that's what I'm afraid she won't deal with.
I'm thinking that if I were to clicker-train her, I'd want to focus on clicking her for accepting others being near her (not too much of a problem anymore, actually - that used to be cause for a hit-the-ground event but she'll prance right by people now as long as they ignore her), then for making eye contact and talking to her, then for getting even closer, then for touching. Sound right?
Everyone. Except that she's Miss Velcro-cuddly-how-close-can-I-possibly-get-to-you with me.
Like I said, it's not a grooming issue at all. It's just that groomers are required to pay attention to and touch the dogs they are grooming, and that's what I'm afraid she won't deal with.
I'm thinking that if I were to clicker-train her, I'd want to focus on clicking her for accepting others being near her (not too much of a problem anymore, actually - that used to be cause for a hit-the-ground event but she'll prance right by people now as long as they ignore her), then for making eye contact and talking to her, then for getting even closer, then for touching. Sound right?
Can you go with her when she's groomed and stand there? The second she even starts to make a growling noise or turns to possibly snap, you correct. I've got a chi that was going to be put to sleep because she was 'viscious'. She wasn't mean at all, just very insecure and hadn't been socialized. In a couple days of getting her out around other people and correcting immediately she was a different dog. Now she approaches other people looking for attention.
I don't mean to be argumentative, just trying to figure out how to make this all work for my Nell.
No sense of arguing here... you're doing everything in your power to try to secure what is best for your dog. There's a difference between a discussion and an argument, no?
From my own point of view: in many ways I think this whole issue is far, far bigger than just grooming. It's about socialisation - or the lack thereof. Personally, if I had a foster dog like that, I'd go back to the very, very beginning - i.e. that a different human can touch the dog and it be, at the very least, a neutral experience. It's not going to happen overnight, no - but it can and will happen.
My personal view would be that every time Nelly has to be touched by a "stranger" and is muzzled for the occasion, it sets back socialisation tenfold. It reinforces her view that this is a singularly bad thing - muzzle goes oh (UH OH & level of fear goes into the stratosphere), stranger touching (fear intensified by overstepping the dog's boundries of confidence plus her inablility to react) and biting is her way out (it works, they go away and stop touching me). I would argue that a dog, ANY dog, is singularly unable to learn in such circumstances - their brain won't allow it.
And out of curiosity, what happens when she has to go to the vet? Has she not been examined since you got her? (As dogpaw rightly asks is she like this with everyone bar you? I'm assuming the answer is yes.)
I think you're underestimating the "power" of behaviour modification and associative learning - by whatever positive reinforcement methods. I would also put forth that a huge amount of this has to do with - to put it in human terms - "low self-confidence".
One other thing - how old is the dog, i.e. how long has this been going on?
Something I feel you need to consider: this is really not a nice way for the dog to live. It's stressful - the world is full of people and people, in her view, are not viewed positively (except for you). Taken to the extreme: what would happen to her if, for whatever reason, someone else had to take her for a period of time? Let's say you (God forbid) had an accident and had to stay in hospital... Where's that leave the dog for those days? Surrounded by "evilness" and frantic perhaps. Not a pleasant thought.
By the way, and perhaps it is something for you to consider as well (in conjuction with a program of behaviour modification) - dogs cannot learn when they are drugged with a sedative. Fact, not theory. However, they can learn when on anti-anxiety medication (fact again). There's a huge difference. It might be worth your while to look into it - the anti-anxiety meds are used to allow us to break a cycle of behaviour that's too ingrained to be broken using traditional methods alone. It should always be combined with a behaviour modification program and never used as a solution of and by itself. Before you shout "I will not drug the dog", read up on it and try to keep an open mind. There are dogs out there for whom this is the best solution - however, with things being what they are these days and people tending to view all psychotropic drugs with varying degrees of distain... well, 'nuff said. I, for one, feel there are cases when they should be used (and not treated as a last resort) to allow us to get past the individual behaviour roadblocks certain animals present so the animal can go on to live a calmer and happier life.
I'm thinking that if I were to clicker-train her, I'd want to focus on clicking her for accepting others being near her (not too much of a problem anymore, actually - that used to be cause for a hit-the-ground event but she'll prance right by people now as long as they ignore her), then for making eye contact and talking to her, then for getting even closer, then for touching. Sound right?
Yes, that sounds exactly right. You move along at the dog's pace - you respect her boundries, her limits with regard to where feelings of insecurity and panic are triggered, and never move past that until she lets you know she's comfortable there. Progress should be made in minute increments.
NEVER be afraid to go back if you find you maybe pushed too far. Re-establish comfort at a particular level again before moving forward again. It will be one step forward, two steps back for a bit... but you will also get there.
Yes, that sounds exactly right. You move along at the dog's pace - you respect her boundries, her limits with regard to where feelings of insecurity and panic are triggered, and never move past that until she lets you know she's comfortable there. Progress should be made in minute increments.
NEVER be afraid to go back if you find you maybe pushed too far. Re-establish comfort at a particular level again before moving forward again. It will be one step forward, two steps back for a bit... but you will also get there.
I disagree. A dog takes it's cues from the signals - both verbal and non-verbal - that they get from humans. That's why a dog that's not socialized and is handled by someone that's trying to 'protect' it's feelings will take way longer to socialize.
You are the handler, the boss. You set the rules. If you take it slow and allow her to be afraid, you're prolonging the process. If she starts to react in fear and you correct her immediately, it's you telling her there is no reason for fear. She'll immediately relax if you will.
Nelly is about 5 years old per the vet, and I've had her 9 months (found her left in a cat carrier on the shelter sidewalk at night). The fearful behavior has been there from the first day I met her, but as I explained it used to take a different form. She used to just collapse and shake in the face of something she was anxious about, and overall it was very widespread. Many, many things freaked her out.
Now if you saw her at my home with no one else around, or just me and her out on a trail, you'd say she was a confident, impy little dog. She makes trouble, has great fun in the yard, etc. You could even pass by us on a walk and think the same. She literally leaps out of teh car and gallops
to "school" every class, even though she does her practice getting talked to and touched in there.
The snapping only started after the incident when I boarded her for that day when I had to go somewhere for work, but carried on outside that setting. The actual trigger was when she wouldn't come out of the crate in the strange environment, and so pooped in it, and the woman tried to pull her out to clean it up. She shouldn't have tried to pull her out, I know. But I also did not expect anything like that and so I didn't warn her specifically against touching her. I did go on and on about how shy she was, of course.
She's been to the vet on numerous occasions and as I said, to the groomer twice. The last time she was at the vet was approximately a week before she was boarded in January, for her license and shots. Nervous, but no problem with snapping or growling. But I think if I brought her in today to the vet, she would snap.
She was on anxiety meds before (Reconcile, aka Prozac) for several months when I first obtained her, because of the outrageous separation anxiety ("Don't hide behind that shower curtain, Mom! Oh God, where ARE you???" every single morning). It did help get over that hump.
I am starting to consider going back to it, or something like that. I totally agree that living with such fear is not good for anyone. Don't worry, I'm not a "Don't drug the dog no matter what!" type. Judicious use to get her into a receptive state while giving her other supports is fine with me.
And I have also decided through this discussion that muzzling is not what I want to do with her.
On the other hand, I'm a bit confused about what seems to be improvement in 99% of her life and coping skills and dive-bomb worsening in this area of her life. It's like she obtained just enough confidence to react this way instead of collapse-and-quiver. Collapse-and-quiver was no good but growl-and-snap will get her and me in downright trouble.
Ok, so my plan is start the clicker stuff with just me and her, and then when she gets that, to enlist my parents on their next visit (because if she might snap at someone, it's got to be someone who won't sue me!) to make those incremental approaches and click-reward her for everything she lets them do without a growl or a "sideways eyes", as I call it.
And to start seriously talking to groomers, but maybe not actually take that on for months. And yes, I think only picking one who will let me stay would be a good idea.
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There's a difference between a discussion and an argument, no? 
