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What people most don't seem to know is that debt is now our most fungible trade good. Most cannot conceive the paradox that reducing debt reduces the money supply.
We get it gwynedd1 & we don‘t like it! You explained the problem in posts #5 & #7, but you seem to suggest that there’s nothing to be done about it. You seem to conclude that WE should just bow down & capitulate to the reality of mass serfdom via DEBT/living paycheck to paycheck. You even admit (my interpretation) that only a Depression will correctly cure/heal the Economy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gwynedd1
China will find out what Japan, Germany and the US has. Manufacturing is fickle. Being the financially clever and manipulating middleman is where the money and power is. Good and service were best appropriated through war and we are in an age of financial warfare. The wrong people in every country will win.
Here you go again; there’s nothing you can do about it, so suck it up & capitulate.
Relying on WAR (financial/MIC), & frivolous Gov’t spending, is not considered civilized/conducive behavior in the 21st Century. This article shows what’s on the productive countries minds when it comes to manufacturing an economy. I guess it’s only good for about 70+ years, but it’s a start. More importantly, it's more civilized than the USA & its crony-countries current agenda IMO. http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article34366.html
Last edited by DSOs; 04-30-2012 at 10:18 AM..
Reason: many edits
We get it gwynedd1 & we don‘t like it! You explained the problem in posts #5 & #7, but you seem to suggest that there’s nothing to be done about it. You seem to conclude that WE should just bow down & capitulate to the reality of mass serfdom via DEBT/living paycheck to paycheck. You even admit (my interpretation) that only a Depression will correctly cure/heal the Economy.
I am not suggesting anything. Its purely descriptive. While I have gone into prescriptions before, I see little point since most people don't understand the problem.
A depression would heel the economy like a boot to the head. The problem is the link to middle class debtors providing liquidity through their own debt. Under those circumstances there is no way out for the whole mass. Everyone getting out of debt at once is not mathematically possible. The only cure under the current system is public debt. But then this allows the wealthy to preserve themselves "investing" in taxing power. So again they just circulate their credits to more stagnation and risk very little. They always win.
Quote:
Here you go again; there’s nothing you can do about it, so suck it up & capitulate.
Relying on WAR (financial/MIC), & frivolous Gov’t spending, is not considered civilized/conducive behavior in the 21st Century. This article shows what’s on the productive countries minds when it comes to manufacturing an economy. I guess it’s only good for about 70+ years, but it’s a start. More importantly, it's more civilized than the USA & its crony-countries current agenda IMO. http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article34366.html
Go ahead get the word out. I hope someone is not a cynical as I am.
Found this review of The Creature from Jekyll island on Amazon. It is well said.
"It is not the lack of any historical credentials that makes this volume so weak, but the lack of objectivity is the reason so few with any academic credentials will support it. That is why it has to boast a recommendation from Willie Nelson on the cover. As a well studied monetary economist Willie Nelson is a great singer.
It is written with preordained conclusions. The author creates 'official' sounding names like the "Rothschild Formula" to suggest a credibility. He offers quotes then notes in the footnotes that he could find no original source for the quote, but if you know the Rothschild history it is certainly 'conceivable' that it was said. This is academic cowardice and laziness.
This is not to say that there are many facts which are interesting, even if many are wrong. He even noted that Napoleon was a man of peace who was destroyed by a banking conspiracy. I guess that thing in Russia was just a training exercise.
It is stunning to me how many people have read this and swallow it uncritically. I wonder how many have read other books about the history of banking and money that actually have credibility?
A quick lesson in conspiracy theories:
1. A measure of truth is often more misleading than all of a lie. It is context that matters. Reading with preordained conclusions leads one to reject contrary information. Assumptions MUST be challenged.
2. Never assume conspiracy when incompetence will explain it just as well. Just because world leaders in politics and finance have screwed up so royally for so long- and they certainly have- does not mean more sinister forces were at work.
3. In the face of irrefutable evidence it is still possible- and in this book likely- to reach the wrong conclusion.
4. If your response to skeptics of conspiracy theories is "It fits" meaning the work does succeed in offering an explanation that logically works- then you are the ultimate sucker for conspiracy theories.
This book is a valuable tool to discover and identify poor research, presumptive statements, the danger of preordained conclusions, and other aspects of conspiracy theories. It is this and only this that keeps me reading this to the end. Like many of you - you have a friend or many friends who have pushed you to read this - I finally took it on and was appalled in less than 50 pages- I grabbed a pencil and started commenting in the margins the errors and fallacies. I have to constantly resharpen my pencil.
There really is a serious debate to be had about central banking and hard currencies. This book is not it. If you want to truly understand banking and currency there are many books to be had- BUT be prepared for some dry reading. It can be complicated especially when you get to foreign exchange. If you want to understand how conspiracy theories gain acceptability then grab a pencil and read this book. But if this is only book you have read on the subject- be careful not to be a sucker."
...The problem is the link to middle class debtors providing liquidity through their own debt.
Nice phrasing! IMO, you just uncovered the conspiracy of bankster/consumer Moral Hazard. EVERYBODY's justified in doing their part; the Banksters' recklessly lend, & the consumer recklessly spend; all to benefit mankind & the ECONOMY.
Arguably, the spendthrift consumer would now like to be more responsible but can't; fiscal/monetary policy is preventing/punishing savings,& even dissuading paying down debt! This is exponentially unsustainable.
A mini-Depression/out in the open Great Recession is the only/best fix for this mutual bondage IMO.
"The wheels (circle of that "needs bigger debt to feed the debt" aka vicious cycle of debt) on the bus goes round & round, round & round...." TILL!!!!
You get that "money wrench" (i.e. like China, buying technology from USA via the top politicians behind US people's back; instead of buying into wanting that "debt" in USD from the American people) thrown at that wheel...
Then that wheel goes "flat" & "unpredictable".
Nirvana = breaking that "Karma" cycle that keeps feeding upon itself till a "total collapse" like a snake devouring itself... all good thing or even bad will one day come to an end.
Found this review of The Creature from Jekyll island on Amazon. It is well said.
"It is not the lack of any historical credentials that makes this volume so weak, but the lack of objectivity is the reason so few with any academic credentials will support it. That is why it has to boast a recommendation from Willie Nelson on the cover. As a well studied monetary economist Willie Nelson is a great singer.
It is written with preordained conclusions. The author creates 'official' sounding names like the "Rothschild Formula" to suggest a credibility. He offers quotes then notes in the footnotes that he could find no original source for the quote, but if you know the Rothschild history it is certainly 'conceivable' that it was said. This is academic cowardice and laziness.
This is not to say that there are many facts which are interesting, even if many are wrong. He even noted that Napoleon was a man of peace who was destroyed by a banking conspiracy. I guess that thing in Russia was just a training exercise.
It is stunning to me how many people have read this and swallow it uncritically. I wonder how many have read other books about the history of banking and money that actually have credibility?
A quick lesson in conspiracy theories:
1. A measure of truth is often more misleading than all of a lie. It is context that matters. Reading with preordained conclusions leads one to reject contrary information. Assumptions MUST be challenged.
2. Never assume conspiracy when incompetence will explain it just as well. Just because world leaders in politics and finance have screwed up so royally for so long- and they certainly have- does not mean more sinister forces were at work.
3. In the face of irrefutable evidence it is still possible- and in this book likely- to reach the wrong conclusion.
4. If your response to skeptics of conspiracy theories is "It fits" meaning the work does succeed in offering an explanation that logically works- then you are the ultimate sucker for conspiracy theories.
This book is a valuable tool to discover and identify poor research, presumptive statements, the danger of preordained conclusions, and other aspects of conspiracy theories. It is this and only this that keeps me reading this to the end. Like many of you - you have a friend or many friends who have pushed you to read this - I finally took it on and was appalled in less than 50 pages- I grabbed a pencil and started commenting in the margins the errors and fallacies. I have to constantly resharpen my pencil.
There really is a serious debate to be had about central banking and hard currencies. This book is not it. If you want to truly understand banking and currency there are many books to be had- BUT be prepared for some dry reading. It can be complicated especially when you get to foreign exchange. If you want to understand how conspiracy theories gain acceptability then grab a pencil and read this book. But if this is only book you have read on the subject- be careful not to be a sucker."
I have read the book along with many others in economics. I could go into the specifics of my criticisms, but then this review does not either. You could decide that an endorsement from Willie Nelsonis poor, but then so is the criticism that goes no further than look at who endorses it.
One good rule to follow is to not even bother with any argument that falls under well know logical fallacies, in this case appeal to authority. What ever happened to the facts and arguments themselves? As to sources there is no source for the wheel. There is no record in the patent office and yet their it is and it works from ox carts to landing gear . Is there any conflict of interest for financiers? Am I not to notice British financiers for the Louisiana purchase and also not notice these fund went to British enemies? Am I to remain a moron without a source?
No wonder we are infested with axiomatic formulas, tautological augments, and self serving pedagogy. If you establish your own facts with logical arguments, the faith is established without consulting any holy writ.
As to the book he is relatively current with respect to the bailout section. You should also pay attention to the likes of the Panama canal as an unassailable formula. Public assets in US hands cannot serve as collateral. Give it to Panama and commercial banks now have collateral for high interest bank loans to the third world. Thus the current privatization bug up everyone's keister has more to do with the securitization of assets and profit for banks rather than so called private efficiencies. Privatized assets = interest and /or control of a once public asset.
Much of the rest of the book is more speculative. However such speculations do not make them invalid. He is a gold bug, while I am not etc etc.
And if anything the current suckers are the ones who accept the current economic orthodoxy. There is also no reason, for example, to complicate foreign exchange. Anyone who just purchased tickets to Disneyland can understand foreign exchange. Aussie dollars means we now have tickets for the Austrian economy. I'd also suggest looking into Scottish free banking. We need to expose it the lay public. The book is more like an editorial in journalism which is an initial jab at the subject. Its not a professional journal. Its investigative journalism and inherently sloppy.
What ever happened to economic rent? Price discrimination shows this concept is alive and well, but when applied elsewhere, putting certain people in a negative light, it seems to have been nixed since the 20th century. If you are going to go "main stream" start in the 18th and 19th century.
Oh and one last thing. Main Stream economists working for the FED saw no major problems in 2007.
Having to rely on an endorsement from a guy who spends all his time smoking weed and filing for bankruptcy is plain hilarious! When you cannot even pay a credible expert for an endorsement, that says a lot about your content.
The ideas of the lunatic fringe are always steeped in factual references, then erroneous connections are made! Knowing our system is imperfect and subject to human greed and excess, still does not require us to look to fringe elements for explanations. People love conspiracy theory and there are always seeds of truth that get taken to unsupported conclusions. i am sure there are niblets of "truth" in Mein Kampf.
FED economists saw plenty of problems way before 2007. In retrospect even Greenspan has acknowledged he could have done things differently. That is the nature of hindsight. The FED is not in the business of stomping their feet and insisting people listen to them and follow their plan. I interpreted Greenspan's comments about housing and the credit markets to be serious and dire back in 2005. Those making money were eager to brush it all aside. politicians were eager to not rock the boat.
Then there is the issue of selling books.
Last edited by shaker281; 05-03-2012 at 01:06 AM..
Having to rely on an endorsement from a guy who spends all his time smoking weed and filing for bankruptcy is plain hilarious! When you cannot even pay a credible expert for an endorsement, that says a lot about your content.
The ideas of the lunatic fringe are always steeped in factual references, then erroneous connections are made! Knowing our system is imperfect and subject to human greed and excess, still does not require us to look to fringe elements for explanations. People love conspiracy theory and there are always seeds of truth that get taken to unsupported conclusions. i am sure there are niblets of "truth" in Mein Kampf.
FED economists saw plenty of problems way before 2007. In retrospect even Greenspan has acknowledged he could have done things differently. That is the nature of hindsight. The FED is not in the business of stomping their feet and insisting people listen to them and follow their plan. I interpreted Greenspan's comments about housing and the credit markets to be serious and dire back in 2005. Those making money were eager to brush it all aside. politicians were eager to not rock the boat.
Then there is the issue of selling books.
Again, not so much about the book itself, but which part of the book did you read that you found lacking the most? I still have not seen any discussion. Your post is another polemic about the alleged though process of lunatics which seems to me to have nothing to do with the subject matter.
People love conspiracy theory and there are always seeds of truth that get taken to unsupported conclusions.
Why did the Banks’ offer teaser rates to homebuyers’? I say they were banking on higher interest payments down the road (duh), eager for eventual homeowner default, or Gov’t rescue (Moral Hazard).
Why are Savers paying for the mess enabled by Debtors? I say because the financial Elite want EVERYBODY to live in DEBT, while the .05% can wallow in their lucrative/Imperial mire.
I encourage you to discredit my conspiracy theories.
Again, not so much about the book itself, but which part of the book did you read that you found lacking the most? I still have not seen any discussion. Your post is another polemic about the alleged though process of lunatics which seems to me to have nothing to do with the subject matter.
I thought it was obvious. This is a typically libertarian style indictment of the FED. Declaring that a fiat monetary system is a scam. Basically saying that the FED is a puppet arm of the banks designed to use financial scare tactics to funnel billions of taxpayer dollars to the banking bigwigs. And control the financial system so that the bankers will profit at everyone's expense. There is no question he is trying to make the case it is all a big global socialist conspiracy.
Basic conspiracy theory. Take some facts, shreds of truth, sometimes out of context and interpret them to suit a fringe mentality. There is no point debating the conclusions Griffin is promoting, despite some of his evidence being factual. Either you believe there is a global banking conspiracy afoot or you don't. I don't!
It fits in nicely with the idea we are not personally responsible for the institutions and systems we have created. Or the politicians we elect to define our policies. Some secret organization is gathering in the darkness to screw us despite our best intentions. The way I see it there is plenty of greed and stupidity to go around. I see no reason to attribute our economic woes to shadowy global conspiracies, just everyday greed and ignorance! Occam's razor.
On the other hand, I do believe the system is stacked to favor the concentration of wealth to the top. The data is impossible to ignore. So, same result, I suppose. Do you believe the favorable tax rates for the wealthy and promoting of trickle down economics is a shadowy GOP conspiracy to concentrate wealth into fewer and fewer hands? Or just greed and misguided policy? Or maybe it is good thing?
Last edited by shaker281; 05-05-2012 at 01:18 AM..
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Wage Inflation can't rescue
IMO, you just uncovered the conspiracy of bankster/consumer Moral Hazard. EVERYBODY's justified in doing their part; the Banksters' recklessly lend, & the consumer recklessly spend; all to benefit mankind & the ECONOMY.
