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Because a student has choices with how the money is spent. Giving a student 100k of debt with nothing in return is one thing.
But we were discussing that students paying for college degrees were getting nothing in return, except the perception that they're qualified for jobs that used to require a HS degree or less.
I think it would be great if students were able to pay their own money for college. But the amounts required of them currently are ridiculous. They are forced to choose between a life of jobless poverty, or crushing levels of debt (and possibly also a life of jobless poverty).
A lot of people on this forum seem to think it is reasonable to expect someone to drag out their schooling in order to work their way through it, even though people who don't graduate in 6 years are much more likely to leave school without finishing than those that were on track to finish faster. For the record, I disagree with the idea that college kids should be expected to work their way through it, but that is their view and I'm simply telling you their argument.
Most kids don't graduate in 4 years as a whole, 5 years is more the norm pushing 6+. You got your undergrad in 3. How hard are the kids working that take 5-6 years?
Can someone please explain how in the world can a university president be paid as much as five million or more a year? What is it that they do? Wait. They make our young people go into debt.
This is the most immoral and shameful aspect of the American society.
Buying people is not cheap. Payoffs are expensive and putting the right people in the right places is very important if you are going to control public thinking and the scientific studies done by these universities.
But we were discussing that students paying for college degrees were getting nothing in return, except the perception that they're qualified for jobs that used to require a HS degree or less.
Because a student has choices with how the money is spent. Giving a student 100k of debt with nothing in return is one thing.
Telling a student that going to college will incur 100k of cost and they can spend it however they want but must remember 100k of debt will amount to over 700 dollars a month is a very different story.
People spend their own money very differently than how they spend other people's money.
The "study" ncole1 posted has confounding variables. It must be corrected for IQ. I believe the study you presented to be biased and based on estimates and projections. This is quite disappointing as PhD students are usually familiar with how studies are conducted.
The condescending tone is uncalled for.
You say the study should be controlled for IQ. Yet a few posts ago, you were making arguments about the motivation and work ethic of indebted new college grads. Do you not see the hypocrisy here? On the one hand, you reject a study out of hand due to imperfect (but still good) controls, and on the other hand, you accept something based on nothing but your personal intuition with no data supporting it at all?
For the record, you said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigboibob
A lot of community college students live with parents.
Tuition on student loans and parents paying living expenses is very doable(what i plan to do) part time jobs plus school is also very doable.
My hypothesis is that students that know they will have student debt after graduating will have more of an incentive to work harder at their career on average.
yes there's going to be people that come up with examples of students that did fine with everything paid for.
I'm focusing on the bigger picture.. with all things equal. The new graduate with student debt after graduating has more of a financial incentive to do better in their career.
I also believe that a student that knows there's a student loan payment 6 months after graduation will have put more thought into a suitable major and career path.. again, on average.
Healthcare has so many issues because we've separated the entity that makes payments from the entity that recieves services/goods. Insurance companies do the paying out and know what specific medicines and procedures actually cost. Insured patients don't care about the actual cost of medicine and only care what they will have to pay out of pocket. The lack of price transparency creates inefficiencies in the market where 1 patient could be paying 10 dollars for a medication while another patient could be paying 500 dollars for the same exact medication.
education is a totally different field but share the same principle in that economic inefficiencies start occurring when you have a party(students) receiving services that another party(parents/taxpayers) is paying for.
I will let you try to clear up this double standard, but until you do this, your argument fails.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigboibob
Additionally ncole1's source, demo.org, is a politically affiliated organization with incentives for producing "studies" with a predefined "finding"
This does not in any way invalidate the portions of the data that come from the US Dept. of Education, for example, the data in figure 2.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankMiller
But we were discussing that students paying for college degrees were getting nothing in return, except the perception that they're qualified for jobs that used to require a HS degree or less.
I think it would be great if students were able to pay their own money for college. But the amounts required of them currently are ridiculous. They are forced to choose between a life of jobless poverty, or crushing levels of debt (and possibly also a life of jobless poverty).
Slight exaggeration, but great point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lowexpectations
Most kids don't graduate in 4 years as a whole, 5 years is more the norm pushing 6+. You got your undergrad in 3. How hard are the kids working that take 5-6 years?
Probably 35-40 hours/week, if they were as prepared for college as I was with 27 AP credits going in. That post of mine was written before bigboibob made clear that living expenses would be covered, so I was under the assumption we were discussing a full-blown "work one's way through school" scenario. (Incidentally, BBB's position was explained in the very next post...)
I would be looking at my return on investment if i was shelling out 100k of tuition.
#117 Theology average mid career salary of 52k
#18 Management in Information Systems average mid career salary of 92k
We were saying college degrees are being needed for jobs that don't even require one.
A student that is shelling out 100k is more likely to look at this list
Mid-career salary is hardly relevant when loans are expected to be repaid out of early career salaries.
The only thing a good mid-career salary might do is to allow you to recover the damage done by loan debt's effect on retirement savings during earlier years.
And it would need to be MUCH higher than 52k for that, given the high expenses people will have at that life stage including raising a family and repaying an even bigger debt than their student loans - a mortgage.
Can someone please explain how in the world can a university president be paid as much as five million or more a year? What is it that they do? Wait. They make our young people go into debt.
This is the most immoral and shameful aspect of the American society.
What a ridiculous assertion, apparently you have some beef with this group & decided to make an overreaching principle.
This does not in any way invalidate the portions of the data that come from the US Dept. of Education, for example, the data in figure 2.
figure 2 only breaks down the level of indebtedness by race, nothing more.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigboibob
I'm focusing on the bigger picture.. with all things equal. The new graduate with student debt after graduating has more of a financial incentive to do better in their career.
All things being equal means the study must correct for confounding variables.
Instead, the study you quoted simply took a snapshot in time and blindly extrapolated. It's hard to even call it a study.
They took data from different sources, and made a conclusion based on their models and extrapolation. Their conclusion conflicts with one of the resources used as a reference!
Below is an abstract from a reference used in the "study". I couldn't make this up.
Page 2 -
Quote:
We find that debt causes graduates to choose substantially higher-salary jobs and reduces the probability
that students choose low-paid "public interest" jobs.
The conclusion of a reference used on the Demos political think tank "study"
Quote:
The point estimates indicate that changes in employment choices were large enough
to entirely offset the effect of student debt on after-tax, after-loan-payment earnings in the first
years after graduation.
Not sure what your point is but newly graduated salaries are just as drastic.
Probably 35-40 hours/week, if they were as prepared for college as I was with 27 AP credits going in. That post of mine was written before bigboibob made clear that living expenses would be covered, so I was under the assumption we were discussing a full-blown "work one's way through school" scenario. (Incidentally, BBB's position was explained in the very next post...)
If you are taking 5-6 years for an undergrad you are not putting in 35-40 hours a week towards school
If you are taking 5-6 years for an undergrad you are not putting in 35-40 hours a week towards school
I said towards work, not school. I am assuming starting out almost a year ahead (because you wanted to use me finishing in 3 years as a comparison point, which I was able to do since I had the 27 AP credits which basically put me a year ahead.)
Of course I don't think the amount of sleep deprivation involved is healthy either, which is another reason I am opposed to this whole idea of working one's way through school...
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