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The fact that the extorted funds are used to benefit someone else, or society at large, does not justify the means by which the funds are acquired: under threat of force.
That "someone else" is you.
You were not born alone in the desert. The society you live is an intricate web of many interdependent parts, that took centuries to build.
Ponder why every developed country has high wealth and income distribution including wage supports... more than the US. It isn't an accident that this is so. It is necessary if you want a prosperous society, else all the wealth ends up in a few hands. This is unfortunate because it is messy, but it is much better than the alternatives.
I don't take welfare. I don't have kids enrolled in the public school system. I don't even have a paid fire department that serves the area where I live. But I pay taxes for all of those things, and many more.
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Originally Posted by rruff
Ponder why every developed country has high wealth and income distribution including wage supports... more than the US.
"But mom, everybody stays out late, why can't I?"
The fact that wealth redistribution happens is NOT the reason why any particular country is prosperous. Any prosperous country is prosperous in spite of wealth redistribution, not because of it.
If you have any argument for growing the entire pie, rather than taking from some in order to give to others, I'd like to hear it.
The trick is to increase the taxes the wealthy pay without prompting them to move or decide to work less and reduce their income.
It doesn't prompt the rich to "work less" at all.
One thing most people don't understand is that the high marginal tax rates we had from the GD til Reagan, encouraged the wealthy to invest. How can that be?! It's simple. If you extract income it gets taxed at a high rate. If you earn capital gains the rate is much lower. So earnings were promptly cycled bake into the economy. That's the reason why this period resulted in the the best economic performance in US history by far.
We've spent the last 35 years encouraging businesses to extract capital and invest overseas. A few have gotten incredibly wealthy from this, and it appears they own our government. Good luck getting these policies changed.
I don't take welfare. I don't have kids enrolled in the public school system. I don't even have a paid fire department that serves the area where I live. But I pay taxes for all of those things, and many more.
You benefit hugely from living in this society.
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The fact that wealth redistribution happens is NOT the reason why any particular country is prosperous. Any prosperous country is prosperous in spite of wealth redistribution, not because of it.
You think it's an accident that all wealthy countries have high taxes, high public benefits and wage boosting (usually via unions)? The facts are irrefutable. You just haven't looked at them.
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If you have any argument for growing the entire pie, rather than taking from some in order to give to others, I'd like to hear it.
The pie grows fastest the more it is shared. Every seller needs a buyer.
Capitalism alone *naturally* concentrates all the wealth and power into a few hands. If the masses are too poor to buy, you won't get far with production. That's why it was predicted that capitalism would fail shortly after the industrial revolution began, and communism would supplant it. But the capitalists were smart enough to realize they needed a wealthy consumer base in order for capitalism to work, and public benefits and labor unions were allowed to grow, resulted in a wealthy middle class.
This is the model that every developed country uses. Look at the stats and you'll see that nearly all of them have higher wealth redistribution than the US and have been exceeding the US economically in recent decades. Such societies are a complex mess with a lot of inefficiencies just like the US, but it is the only system that works.
Our most prosperous period was from the 30s-70s when we had high union involvement, high marginal taxes, and rapidly increasing public benefits. Real wages more than tripled in 40 years !!! Since then our policies have been co-opted by globalists who are getting massively wealthy, but no one else. And you are worried about taxes! Your attention is about 180 degrees from where it ought to be.
The fact that I pay for more than I consume tells me that I'm not the one deriving maximum benefit from this arrangement.
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Originally Posted by rruff
You think it's an accident that all wealthy countries have high taxes, high public benefits and wage boosting (usually via unions)? The facts are irrefutable. You just haven't looked at them.
Yeah sure, I'll just take your word for it.
You seem to think that a high quantity of money "kept moving" equates to being a wealthy nation. I, OTOH, think that a wealthy nation is one where per-capita assets are high. It's hard to accumulate assets when a high percentage of one's income is taken in the form of taxes.
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Originally Posted by rruff
The pie grows fastest the more it is shared.
The pie grows when value is created. More economic activity equals growth. Redistribution is merely taking from one to give to another, no value is created in that transaction. However, some value is lost, because the one who receives cannot receive the full value of what was taken, as there are costs associated with the process of redistribution.
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Originally Posted by rruff
Every seller needs a buyer.
Every would-be buyer needs at least one seller.
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Originally Posted by rruff
Capitalism alone *naturally* concentrates all the wealth and power into a few hands. If the masses are too poor to buy, you won't get far with production.
You falsely assume that capitalism does not benefit the general public.
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Originally Posted by rruff
That's why it was predicted that capitalism would fail shortly after the industrial revolution began, and communism would supplant it.
As usual, the commies were wrong.
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Originally Posted by rruff
But the capitalists were smart enough to realize they needed a wealthy consumer base in order for capitalism to work
But, but, those evil 1% capitalist pigs want ALL the wealth for themselves. Stick to the script.
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Originally Posted by rruff
Real wages more than tripled in 40 years !!!
Which benefits the working man & his family little if a large percentage of his wages are being taken from him in the form of union dues and taxes.
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Originally Posted by rruff
Since then our policies have been co-opted by globalists who are getting massively wealthy, but no one else.
Again, you hold the false assumption that capitalism does not benefit the general public.
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Originally Posted by rruff
And you are worried about taxes!
Taxes impede upward mobility.
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Originally Posted by rruff
Your attention is about 180 degrees from where it ought to be.
No, it is on my own upward mobility, exactly where it should be.
Coming from a poor background, struggling through the middle class and now high income. Here is what I understand... I didn't bust my ass to pay for those who won't put in effort, who whine but won't do anything change their circumstances. I believe we need to pay taxes but this is ridiculous.
You're being delusional. Taxes in the US have recently been at their lowest levels since the 1950s. The US as a whole diverts a smaller portion of its GDP through the public sector than virtually any other prosperous economy in the world. You may be foundering personally or professionally, but it isn't the fault of high taxes.
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