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The only reason the United States isn't in bigger trouble right now is that other countries keep buying our debt. How long before we are where Greece is? Do you think we will avoid it? 10 years? Longer? Socialism doesn't work. Eventually you do run out of other people's money. Greece is the textbook. Germany didn't blink like Greece thought they would. Can just kicked down the road and Greece I think hS hit a point of no return . Hopefully Portugal, Spain etc. will learn from Germany's actions. How about the United States? How far are we away from where Greece is now?
No, the only reason the USA isn't in bigger trouble is that it keeps PAYING its debts. It doesn't matter where that money comes from. Investors don't care as long as they don't default.
The only reason the United States isn't in bigger trouble right now is that other countries keep buying our debt. How long before we are where Greece is?
It's a myth that only other countries buy US debt. A lot of US debt is owned by US institutions and individuals.
To get where Greece is the US would have to double its debt from 100% of GDP to 200% of GDP _and_ have a continuously shrinking GDP. There's no sign of either happening here anytime soon.
Germany is partially to blame for Greece's demise by insisting on austerity. Austerity doesn't work because the population has less money to spend, which causes the economy to shrink, which guarantees debts won't be paid. It's like giving somebody a pay cut when they are facing foreclosure. It's a death sentence.
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Originally Posted by Burkmere
Socialism doesn't work.
The countries with the highest standard of living include Norway, Switzerland, Denmark, Sweden, Canada, Germany, Netherlands... these are all countries that are part socialist, part capitalist. They are superior to the U.S. in education, infant mortality, life expectancy, and other key measures of what it means to be civilized.
What's been proven _not_ to work is supply side trickle down economics. Giving the uber wealthy big fat tax cuts does not make jobs fall from the sky. I hope we've learned that.
I'm actually glad so many of you are completely optimistic about the future of America that our dad is actually a good thing. Guess I won't have to worry about my big pension that I'm getting from the government then. Thanks to all of you who are willing to fund it ad infinitum ! Party on I guess!
It's a myth that only other countries buy US debt. A lot of US debt is owned by US institutions and individuals.
To get where Greece is the US would have to double its debt from 100% of GDP to 200% of GDP _and_ have a continuously shrinking GDP. There's no sign of either happening here anytime soon.
Germany is partially to blame for Greece's demise by insisting on austerity. Austerity doesn't work because the population has less money to spend, which causes the economy to shrink, which guarantees debts won't be paid. It's like giving somebody a pay cut when they are facing foreclosure. It's a death sentence.
The countries with the highest standard of living include Norway, Switzerland, Denmark, Sweden, Canada, Germany, Netherlands... these are all countries that are part socialist, part capitalist. They are superior to the U.S. in education, infant mortality, life expectancy, and other key measures of what it means to be civilized.
What's been proven _not_ to work is supply side trickle down economics. Giving the uber wealthy big fat tax cuts does not make jobs fall from the sky. I hope we've learned that.
They are that way primarily because they are much smaller, homogeneous countries with predominately a strong Northern European or Bec with predominately a strong Northern European work ethic that actually produces. So it's much more liable to work in a situation like that. Not so much with our country.
What's been proven _not_ to work is supply side trickle down economics. Giving the uber wealthy big fat tax cuts does not make jobs fall from the sky. I hope we've learned that.
Propaganda beats truth. Apparently.
The problem is that it did in fact work extremely well. For some portion of the 0.01%.
Guess I won't have to worry about my big pension that I'm getting from the government then. Thanks to all of you who are willing to fund it ad infinitum !
Sooner or later the wealthy powers that be will wise up and realize that their wealth depends on you receiving your pension. Entitlement is not a dirty word. Shrinking the middle class through cuts to Social Security, pensions, Medicare, college aid, low wages, etc. ultimately means the middle class has less to spend; which means the wealthy sell less of the goods and services they produce. Tax cuts and spending cuts might help the wealthy in the short run but in the long run, they are cutting their own throats.
Sooner or later the wealthy powers that be will wise up and realize that their wealth depends on you receiving your pension. Entitlement is not a dirty word. Shrinking the middle class through cuts to Social Security, pensions, Medicare, college aid, low wages, etc. ultimately means the middle class has less to spend; which means the wealthy sell less of the goods and services they produce. Tax cuts and spending cuts might help the wealthy in the short run but in the long run, they are cutting their own throats.
I appreciate everyone's big contributions to my pension. Where else but CA where Unions run gov. can I get a pension that equals my salary after working much less years than the private sector fjs do. Oh, and a 491k, 457, 491a, and Roth 491k. It's a great country!!!
The entitlement that leaves me wondering is the odd presumption among so many who have no clue at all about economics that they should go ahead and talk about it anyway.
This post added nothing to the discussion.
And no, the middle-class is not built on government programs. If a country's middle class only exists because of government programs, then the economy is terminally ill.
It's a myth that only other countries buy US debt. A lot of US debt is owned by US institutions and individuals.
Lets look at that debt.
$179 Billion in US Savings Bonds (down from $204 Billion in 2004)
$493 Billion in private pension plans. Since pension plans are under funded, the $493 Billion will have to be cashed in to pay for the pensions.
$234 Billion in State/local government pension plans. Moody's now says these plans owe $2 TRILLION.
$498 Billion held by State/local government outside pension plans.
It is true that $1.3 TRILLION is held by insurance companies and mutual funds, but it would be absurd to suggest that they're picking up the slack.
The biggest increase is in foreign debt holders, from $1.67 TRILLION in 2004 to $5.6 TRILLION in 2013 (from Table OFS.2).
That busts your myth, since the vast overwhelming majority of debt is being bought by foreigners.
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Originally Posted by Elliott_CA
To get where Greece is the US would have to double its debt from 100% of GDP to 200% of GDP
177%.
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Originally Posted by Elliott_CA
_and_ have a continuously shrinking GDP.
Or a stagnant GDP.
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Originally Posted by Elliott_CA
There's no sign of either happening here anytime soon.
It's happening now, and as I pointed out at current rates it will be around 2070-2075.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elliott_CA
Germany is partially to blame for Greece's demise by insisting on austerity. Austerity doesn't work because the population has less money to spend, which causes the economy to shrink, which guarantees debts won't be paid. It's like giving somebody a pay cut when they are facing foreclosure. It's a death sentence.
Austerity worked for Iceland, Ireland, Latvia and a number of other Euro-States.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elliott_CA
The countries with the highest standard of living include Norway, Switzerland, Denmark, Sweden, Canada, Germany, Netherlands... these are all countries that are part socialist, part capitalist. They are superior to the U.S. in education, infant mortality, life expectancy, and other key measures of what it means to be civilized.
They are also homogenous nation-States with small populations.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elliott_CA
Sooner or later the wealthy powers that be will wise up and realize that their wealth depends on you receiving your pension.
No.
$5 Profit is $5 Profit.
Whether I manufacture something in the US for $28 and sell it for $33 to get a $5 Profit or manufacture something in Romania for $1 and sell it for $6 to get a $5 Profit, at the end of the day, I get a $5 Profit.
I don't need the US for anything.
America is only 317 Million. The Chinese Middle Class is 300 Million. The Indian Middle Class is 300 Million. The Central Asia Middle Class will be as large as the US. The sub-Saharan Middle Class will be 300 Billion.
Lots and lots and lots of profit to be made...
...and none of it in the US...
Mircea
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