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Old 09-02-2020, 11:25 PM
 
Location: Redwood Shores, CA
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It is an age old theory, that the world has an over-population problem, and that the earth's resources cannot sustain more and more people, all needing to eat beef, find housing, flush toilet, move around.

However, at the individual country level many countries are also dreading low population growth rate; some even resorting to immigration to meet population growth target.

Do these two ideas contradict each other?
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Old 09-02-2020, 11:51 PM
 
Location: Flyover part of Virginia
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The system requires infinite growth and infinite debt expansion- that's why there's so much hand-wringing over declining birth rates. We need ever more people to sacrifice to the insatiable sun-god of GDP growth.

The system is tragically absurd. It requires infinite growth and infinite debt expansion in a finite realm. Even though the human population bubble is unsustainable, it still needs to grow so the god of GDP growth can be satisfied. When there is no more capacity for further growth, the global paradigm will crash. The human population bubble will burst as well, as the usual suspects of famine, violence, disease, and also suicides and drug/alcohol abuse, do their dirty work.
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Old 09-25-2020, 08:36 AM
 
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countries are dreading the loss of tax dollers...Thats the reason they dread low population growth in my opinion.
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Old 09-25-2020, 09:20 AM
 
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The Earth itself is a finite system and we are limited by its resources and capacity to absorb our wastes. But our solar system is a lot bigger than this little ball of dust. Others like Jeff Bezos envision one trillion humans living in the solar system by the year 2150. He said “The solar system can support a trillion humans, and then we'd have 1,000 Mozarts, and 1,000 Einsteins. Think how incredible and dynamic that civilisation will be."
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Old 09-25-2020, 09:28 AM
 
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Simply look up MANY presentations that, in reality, population is MUCH lower, than advertised.

There is one very cute graph, showing how "Earth population" grew pretty much as a graph, showing mass media growth. The more media spread, the more people were born. Kinda curious.


Reasons for over inflated numbers vary. Some countries seek funding, based on population. So, they fib numbers to get more money.
Some simply follow order to fib numbers as, prevailing doctrine, thanks to Mr Maltoose, or whatever his name is spelled, is "there are too many mouths on the planet, to be able to sustain".

What will, inevitably, bring you the theory of the golden billion.

Also, you can simply fly airplane and watch those open areas under the wing, clearly swarming with crowds of hungry people that have nowhere to live and dying from hunger everywhere.

Btw, you know that, even if 7B is a true number, entire population can fit into Texas with decent shoulder room for each person?
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Old 09-25-2020, 09:37 AM
 
Location: NJ
31,771 posts, read 40,693,520 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertFisher View Post
It is an age old theory, that the world has an over-population problem, and that the earth's resources cannot sustain more and more people, all needing to eat beef, find housing, flush toilet, move around.

However, at the individual country level many countries are also dreading low population growth rate; some even resorting to immigration to meet population growth target.

Do these two ideas contradict each other?
i think its pretty obvious that earth isnt overpopulated. certain cities may be overpopulated but there is plenty of space available and plenty of resources available (they require a good system to ensure that they are harvested and distributed but they are there).

however, that isnt really related to this idea that we need growth. the reason why growth is needed in developed countries is because the economic system is designed to overspend today and place the burden of paying for it on future generations. its a very selfish system but it works until it doesnt (and we dont know when that happens) and politicians dont get bribed to reduce spending or ensure long term economic health.
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Old 09-25-2020, 09:45 AM
 
Location: Taos NM
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So what's happening here is people are looking at different scopes. The economy is a subset of society which is a subset of the environment / the world.

For the too many people in the world group, they are looking at the world lens instead of the economy lens, and their conclusion is we are consuming too much for what the overarching system, the world, can handle. The too few people for growth group is only looking at the economy lens, so from that narrow scope, more people = more production and consumption = more GDP growth = more debt = more expenditures allowed. They aren't looking at the potential limits to production from the broader environment.

So, do we have too many people? That's been the subject of many threads in the Great Debates section. Yes, there are limits at some point to what the earth can support, whether we are there yet or not is debatable and subject to another thread.

Do we have too few people to support growth? This dilemma is one of leverage / debt and metrics. With metrics, the problem is GDP. Looking at GDP is like looking at the RPMs on your car to determine your speed; it measures quantity but not necessarily quality, just ever increasing quantities does not mean a better quality of life. The leverage problem is that people spend today on the assumption that there will be ever increasing growth tomorrow, and that ever increasing growth just might not happen, at which point you are overlerveraged, or you've overpromised on what you'll be able to repay with when tomorrow comes. When population and resource consumption stabilise, there can still be growth from productivity, but that is smaller than the growth resulting from productivity AND increase in population / consumption.
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Old 09-25-2020, 10:06 AM
 
Location: NC
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Desire for a higher birthrate is like a pyramid scheme. We need more and more people in a “successful” country to pay off the debt and insurance.

Eventually scarcity of resources will prevent that having a positive effect.

And since the earth is always changing, immense knowledge would be necessary to keep ahead of those environmental changes. Add to that the negative aspects of vast populations and you have a real challenge for the long term future. But that is why some people only care about their own lifetimes because to them it is conceptually overwhelming. So they close their ears and minds.
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Old 09-25-2020, 03:01 PM
 
Location: Ohio
24,621 posts, read 19,163,062 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertFisher View Post
It is an age old theory, that the world has an over-population problem, and that the earth's resources cannot sustain more and more people, all needing to eat beef, find housing, flush toilet, move around.

However, at the individual country level many countries are also dreading low population growth rate; some even resorting to immigration to meet population growth target.

Do these two ideas contradict each other?
No. The contradiction is apparent because the first statement is patently false and the second statement is purely ethnocentric, since it applies strictly to Western Europe, the English-speaking States and Japan.

Earth is not over-populated. Earth can easily handle a population of 65 Billion.

Before you get your knickers in a twist, relax. Earth's population will peak at about 16-18 Billion, flat-line and then decline slightly.

There is a correlating relationship between economic development and population growth.

The more developed an economy of any given State is, the lower the rate of population growth.

When your economy is 0 Level Agrarian or 1st Level Natural Resources, you need a huge population because both are labor intensive and little education is required.

When a State shifts into the 2nd Level Manufacturing & Industry, it requires a better educated work-force. You can look to the US as a textbook example.

Men are now finishing high school, which means marriage is delayed and the birth-rate declines.

The 2nd Level Economy also requires finance, accounting, management, administration, logistics, marketing and many other job skills that can only be obtained through university, so marriage is delayed further, so is child-birth and the birth-rate declines.

The birth-rate of the US substantially and continuously declined in the decades before birth control was introduced in the early 1960s.

But even with the introduction of birth control, it had little impact because birth control was not available to all women, it was only available to women of means, or about 10% of women.

Even so, the economy had entered the 3rd Level requiring even greater education, meaning post-graduate education.

Western Europe, the English-speaking States and Japan had by the 1970s began accepting women into the work-force and that caused women to delay marriage or reduce child-birth leading to a greater decline in the birth-rate.

There's also a societal phenomenon.

In 0 and 1st Level Economies your needs are focused on community/tribe.

When you enter the 2nd Level, that focus shifts to the needs of your extended family.

As you continue economic development, your focus shifts to the needs of your family, then to your needs.

Because you are focused on your needs, marriage and child-birth are delayed and sometimes no children are at issue so that leads to a negative birth-rate, which is what we see in the aforementioned States.

The UN's definition of "access to electricity" is amusing.

If you can walk 7 miles to a neighboring village that has a dry-goods store with an electrical outlet and plug in your laptop to charge the battery, then you have "access to electricity" (snicker).

My definition of "access to electricity" is there's a freaking electrical outlet in your home and it really is connected to power lines that run to a power generation plant that runs 24/7.

I mention that, because there's a war going on.

On one side, the Chinese, who are doing everything in their power to economically develop the sub-Saharan African States.

Why?

Because the wage differential between China and sub-Saharan Africa isn't so great and if sub-Saharan Africa rides China's coat-tails, China will have trading partners for the next 500 years.

On the other side is the US, who set up AFRICOM to meddle and interfere in the political, economic and social development of the sub-Saharan States to stymie their economic development.

Why?

It isn't that the US doesn't want sub-Saharan Africa to develop economically, it's just that the US was that development to be at the pleasure and discretion of the US, and 100% to the benefit of the US.

But, the point is, when sub-Saharan Africa gets roads, and I mean concrete/asphalt roads that can handle truck traffic, and railroads and electricity and running water and sewage, then those States will move into the 2nd Level Economy.

That means Africans will have to complete the 10th-12th grades to work in that economy and many will need university education and that will delay marriage and child-birth causing the birth-rate to decline.

Then, as they move into the 3rd Level Economy, it will require even more education at higher levels, delaying marriage and child-birth even longer causing the birth-rate to fall further still.

You have about 2.5 Billion people who have no access to electricity and they are the biggest driver's of global population growth.

When they get developed, that will no longer be the case.
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Old 09-25-2020, 04:07 PM
 
Location: Niceville, FL
13,258 posts, read 22,836,872 times
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Note that China's development projects in Africa are often funded by loans rather than by grants and some countries there are getting less than thrilled at the literal and figurative terms of repayment expected.

I'm all for fewer people on the planet who are able to largely have what are comfortable middle class lifestyles by historical standards. A total population of 3.5-4 billion where in historically very low income countries, you get 80% of households/families* to have at least a sturdy 4 room house or apartment with potable tap water and reliable enough electricity for a fridge and access to quality preventative health care, and we'd be doing well as a species while also having most of the planet wealthy enough and with enough discretionary income to drive a lot of economic development and action.

*- 80% number randomly picked to account for people and families who do prefer a traditional subsistence farming lifestyle.
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