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And those human beings in the corporation have the right to vote as individuals just like we do. But if you take their individual vote and their influence through their lobbying efforts it''s the equivalent to having more than one vote. Also, what about the unfair advantage a group or corporation has through lobbying. You and I get one vote, that's it. Lobbyists get to speak with a louder and more persuasive voice. It's called money.
To me that is stretching now with this "more than one vote" part.
Also, the one vote part sound as if it is the only vote that counts. There are millions of others that vote on either side of the issue so it is not just one vote against a corporation.
For example: Sure, I do not agree with Mr. Obama political views but the nation as a whole did and I respect that. What did the nation say? They wanted him to have more government intervention on economic issues. Do you think corporations like what he is doing now in getting into their areas? I am sure they do not. Did it matter much how much lobbying they did to donate against him? He got elected, right? So how much one vote at a time by each individual citizen do againt the corporation giants?
Of course its a law because the corporations "persuaded" congress to make it a law. But a law isn't a physical reality like gravity. Law is an abstract concept.
The legal principle did not start with persuasion from a corporation, it is the founding principles in our Constitution from the birth of our nation as I see it. Our Founding Fathers shaped it to protect and promote commerce thus why we became such an ecomomic world power in such short period of time compared to other nations in existence for thousands of years.
Agreed that the law is an abstract concept. However, that concept is what to me the Founding Fathers promoted.
Both, that is human nature. You and pretty much everybody does that in varying degrees.
You have a great day.
El Amigo
So you are saying we should ignore the corruption that lobbying creates and just accept the fact that the good of the people is being overridden by corporate interests. Sorry I am not willing to do that. If you study history, it was the common man who abandoned his civic duties that caused the fall of Rome, and unless the people begin to stand up and exercise their civic responsibilities here, we are heading for the same fate. Here are a few of the lobbyist linked scandals in just the legislative branch in the past few years.
In an August 14 article on rawstory.com, Diana Sweet reports that there are six healthcare lobbyists in Washington for every member of Congress. She quotes a Bloomberg News investigation that says that there are “...about 3,300 registered healthcare lobbyists working Congress, clamoring for face time with each of 100 senators and 435 Representatives.” According to the Bloomberg report, new lobbying organizations have set up business in Washington at a rate of three per day since July 1, 2009. “I don’t have a single client who has hired me to kill health care reform,” John Jonas, a partner with the lobbying firm Patton Boggs LLP, a firm representing 33 health care clients, told Bloomberg. “Quite the opposite, they assume health care reform is going to happen and they want to be protected.”
Legislative Branch Scandals
• Ted Stevens Senator (R-AK) convicted on 7 counts of bribery and tax evasion Rick Renzi (R-AZ) Announced he would not seek another term. Seven months later, on February 22, 2008 he pleaded not guilty to 35 charges of fraud, conspiracy and money laundering
• Jack Abramoff Scandal, (R) lobbyist found guilty of conspiracy, tax evasion and corruption of public officials in three different courts in a wide ranging investigation. Currently serving 70 months and fined $24.7 million. See Scandals, Executive Branch. The following were also implicated:
• Tom DeLay (R-TX) House Majority Leader, reprimanded twice by House Ethics Committee and aides indicted (2004-2005); eventually DeLay himself was indicted (October 2005); DeLay resigned from the House 9 June, 2006.
• James W. Ellis (R) runs DeLay’s PAC, indicted
• John D. Calyandro (R) runs Texans for a Republican Majority, indicted
• Adam Kidon business partner of Abramoff, pleaded guilty to fraud, sentenced to 70 months
• Michael Scanlon (R) former staff to Tom DeLay: working for Abramoff, pleaded guilty to bribery
• Tony Rudy (R) former staff to Tom DeLay, pleaded guilty to conspiracy
• Robert Ney (R-OH) bribed by Abramoff, pleaded guilty to conspiracy, sentenced to 30 months
• Neil Volz (R) former staff to Robert Ney, pleaded guilty to conspiracy
• William Heaton (R) former staff to Robert Ney, pleaded guilty to fraud, 24 months probation
• John Albaugh (R) former COS to Ernest Istook (R-OK) pled guilty
• Robert Coughlin (R-PA) pled guilty
• Adam Kidan private citizen, pled guilty and received 70 months
• Trevor Blackann private citizen, pled guilty
• James Hirni, (R) former staff to Tim Hutchinson (R-AK) indicted for wire fraud
• Kevin A. Ring, (R) former staff to John Doolittle (R-CA) indicted for 10 counts of corruption
• John Doolittle (R-CA) both he and his wife are under investigation (January 2008). Under this cloud, Doolittle decided not to run for re-election in November 2008.
• Duke Cunningham (R-CA) pleaded guilty on November 28, 2005 to charges of conspiracy to commit bribery, mail fraud, wire fraud and tax evasion. Sentenced to over eight years.
• Kyle Foggo CIA Exec. Director, number 3 in the agency, was indicted February 13, 2007 on charges of fraud, money laundering, conspiracy. Plea bargained to one count of fraud.
• Cynthia McKinney (D-GA) struck a U.S. Capitol Police officer in the chest after he attempted to stop her from going around a security checkpoint. McKinney apologized on the floor of the House and no charges were filed (March 29, 2006)
• William J. Jefferson (D-LA) in August 2005 the FBI seized $90,000 in cash from Jefferson's home freezer. He was re-elected anyway. On August 4, 2009 he was convicted of 11 counts of bribery. (2009)
1. Brett Pfeffer (D) Jefferson's Chief of Staff was sentenced to 84 months. (2006)
• Bill Janklow (R-SD) convicted of second-degree manslaughter for running a stop sign and killing a motorcyclist. Resigned from the House and given 100 days in the county jail and three years probation
• Robert Torricelli Senator (D-NJ) after 14 years in the House and one term in the Senate, Torricelli declined to run again when accused of taking illegal contributions from Korean, David Chang (2002)
• Jim Traficant (D-OH) found guilty on 10 felony counts of financial corruption, he was sentenced to 8 years in prison and expelled from the House (2002)
• Edward Mezvinsky (D-IA) Pleaded guilty to 31 charges of bank fraud, mail fraud
A coporation is made up of human beings, and are not some nebulous machines.
Those human beings who make up the corporation are already granted rights. It seems unnecessary to grant rights to entities made up of individuals who have rights.
Quote:
Legally, corporations are created for exactly these reasons.
Corporations were created as a shield from individual liability. Which is fine, I just think it shouldn't be protected as an individual.
Quote:
A corporation has legal rights and obligations just as individuals do.
That may be true, but the argument here is, "Should they?"
Quote:
As long as the government can confiscate wealth from corporations and tax them, then they are entitled to representation and the ability to petition government.
The way I see it, the government provides this corporation with a framework for existence, including protection via the military. Therefore the corporation is obligated to pay taxes. You might call it "confiscating wealth", another person might call it "billing for services rendered."
So you are saying we should ignore the corruption that lobbying creates and just accept the fact that the good of the people is being overridden by corporate interests. Sorry I am not willing to do that. If you study history, it was the common man who abandoned his civic duties that caused the fall of Rome, and unless the people begin to stand up and exercise their civic responsibilities here, we are heading for the same fate. Here are a few of the lobbyist linked scandals in just the legislative branch in the past few years.
In an August 14 article on rawstory.com, Diana Sweet reports that there are six healthcare lobbyists in Washington for every member of Congress. She quotes a Bloomberg News investigation that says that there are “...about 3,300 registered healthcare lobbyists working Congress, clamoring for face time with each of 100 senators and 435 Representatives.” According to the Bloomberg report, new lobbying organizations have set up business in Washington at a rate of three per day since July 1, 2009. “I don’t have a single client who has hired me to kill health care reform,” John Jonas, a partner with the lobbying firm Patton Boggs LLP, a firm representing 33 health care clients, told Bloomberg. “Quite the opposite, they assume health care reform is going to happen and they want to be protected.”
Legislative Branch Scandals
• Ted Stevens Senator (R-AK) convicted on 7 counts of bribery and tax evasion Rick Renzi (R-AZ) Announced he would not seek another term. Seven months later, on February 22, 2008 he pleaded not guilty to 35 charges of fraud, conspiracy and money laundering
• Jack Abramoff Scandal, (R) lobbyist found guilty of conspiracy, tax evasion and corruption of public officials in three different courts in a wide ranging investigation. Currently serving 70 months and fined $24.7 million. See Scandals, Executive Branch. The following were also implicated:
• Tom DeLay (R-TX) House Majority Leader, reprimanded twice by House Ethics Committee and aides indicted (2004-2005); eventually DeLay himself was indicted (October 2005); DeLay resigned from the House 9 June, 2006.
• James W. Ellis (R) runs DeLay’s PAC, indicted
• John D. Calyandro (R) runs Texans for a Republican Majority, indicted
• Adam Kidon business partner of Abramoff, pleaded guilty to fraud, sentenced to 70 months
• Michael Scanlon (R) former staff to Tom DeLay: working for Abramoff, pleaded guilty to bribery
• Tony Rudy (R) former staff to Tom DeLay, pleaded guilty to conspiracy
• Robert Ney (R-OH) bribed by Abramoff, pleaded guilty to conspiracy, sentenced to 30 months
• Neil Volz (R) former staff to Robert Ney, pleaded guilty to conspiracy
• William Heaton (R) former staff to Robert Ney, pleaded guilty to fraud, 24 months probation
• John Albaugh (R) former COS to Ernest Istook (R-OK) pled guilty
• Robert Coughlin (R-PA) pled guilty
• Adam Kidan private citizen, pled guilty and received 70 months
• Trevor Blackann private citizen, pled guilty
• James Hirni, (R) former staff to Tim Hutchinson (R-AK) indicted for wire fraud
• Kevin A. Ring, (R) former staff to John Doolittle (R-CA) indicted for 10 counts of corruption
• John Doolittle (R-CA) both he and his wife are under investigation (January 2008). Under this cloud, Doolittle decided not to run for re-election in November 2008.
• Duke Cunningham (R-CA) pleaded guilty on November 28, 2005 to charges of conspiracy to commit bribery, mail fraud, wire fraud and tax evasion. Sentenced to over eight years.
• Kyle Foggo CIA Exec. Director, number 3 in the agency, was indicted February 13, 2007 on charges of fraud, money laundering, conspiracy. Plea bargained to one count of fraud.
• Cynthia McKinney (D-GA) struck a U.S. Capitol Police officer in the chest after he attempted to stop her from going around a security checkpoint. McKinney apologized on the floor of the House and no charges were filed (March 29, 2006)
• William J. Jefferson (D-LA) in August 2005 the FBI seized $90,000 in cash from Jefferson's home freezer. He was re-elected anyway. On August 4, 2009 he was convicted of 11 counts of bribery. (2009)
1. Brett Pfeffer (D) Jefferson's Chief of Staff was sentenced to 84 months. (2006)
• Bill Janklow (R-SD) convicted of second-degree manslaughter for running a stop sign and killing a motorcyclist. Resigned from the House and given 100 days in the county jail and three years probation
• Robert Torricelli Senator (D-NJ) after 14 years in the House and one term in the Senate, Torricelli declined to run again when accused of taking illegal contributions from Korean, David Chang (2002)
• Jim Traficant (D-OH) found guilty on 10 felony counts of financial corruption, he was sentenced to 8 years in prison and expelled from the House (2002)
• Edward Mezvinsky (D-IA) Pleaded guilty to 31 charges of bank fraud, mail fraud
Now, with your starting sentence you put words in my mouth. I never said what you claim I said. You are quoting me out of context. It was a reply to your message that said: Who does the politician work for? you or his wallet.
I stated a simple fact. People do balance many personal interests and one of them is the wallet also. People do think about money when they make family, business, personal, medical care, church donations, etc. decisions.
Politicians do the same. They do make decision that affect their consituents they do weight those decisions against their wallet and that may means how many votes they get. If the majority of the people want something and they are will mean he getting reelected, guess what? That will impact his decision a lot. After all in some ways he is there to please what the majority wants, does he not?
So the issue at times based on that reality is not so much that they do it, how far do the do it?
Some do it enough to keep people happy enough to re-elect him/her. Other do more and others do less and that is what I mean to differing degrees. You made the perennial mistake that often people do, ASSUME and stated that assumption as fact in saying I that I SAID IT, incorrect.
As far as all the examples you provide, what is the percentage of crooked against honest politicians? Your list sounds so long that untrained eyes can go crazy and say "Oh my God! politicians are crooked" without stepping back and see how big of a sample this is from the population.
Also, you can go back and re-read my previous message and somewhere you will find I said I am not saying there is no problem. I am saying we need to concentrate improving the system, not just outlaw it because there are bad apples in it.
To me I would say you missed my point on the issue. Because I do read history I believe in most of the time improving a system than just lump a cookie cutter solution anytime some bad apples make the rest look bad.
Politicians do the same. They do make decision that affect their consituents they do weight those decisions against their wallet and that may means how many votes they get. If the majority of the people want something and they are will mean he getting reelected, guess what? That will impact his decision a lot. After all in some ways he is there to please what the majority wants, does he not?
The problem with your statement is you are assuming that the average voter is informed as to what the issues are, and will use that information at election time. Just for an experiment go out on the street and randomly ask 10 people who their congressman is. If you get 2 out of 10 who know you will be doing good. Politicians are not elected on the issues; they are elected on the amount of commercials they can afford to run. The only exception to that is if they end up involved in a scandal on the news.
The problem with your statement is you are assuming that the average voter is informed as to what the issues are, and will use that information at election time. Just for an experiment go out on the street and randomly ask 10 people who their congressman is. If you get 2 out of 10 who know you will be doing good. Politicians are not elected on the issues; they are elected on the amount of commercials they can afford to run. The only exception to that is if they end up involved in a scandal on the news.
Again, I am not assuming a thing, you ASSUMED I did. I simply stated a fact of the differing way politicians may make decision, no more no less and that is a different point as to how informed the people are, not the point in discussion. Howeverl, since you brought up that point, I do agree with you about how missinforme many citizens are. With that in mind, then it serves them well if politicians take advantage of it.
I then reiterate my comment I made earlier we can improve the system, not agree we need to outlaw it.
Lobbying (with legal interactions) is freedom of speech for corporations. As a shareholder in many firms I feel they should have the right to address elected officials.... it is an extension of my rights as a citizen.
Couldn't you do that on an individual level rather than using the power of a corporation ($$)?
To me it's all about everyone being on an equal playing field.
The little old lady down the street who wants fairer prices in the pharmaceutical market doesn't have a chance against Big Pharma in terms of getting her views represented.
Again, I am not assuming a thing, you ASSUMED I did. I simply stated a fact of the differing way politicians may make decision, no more no less and that is a different point as to how informed the people are, not the point in discussion. Howeverl, since you brought up that point, I do agree with you about how missinforme many citizens are. With that in mind, then it serves them well if politicians take advantage of it.
I then reiterate my comment I made earlier we can improve the system, not agree we need to outlaw it.
You have a great day.
El Amigo
Desperate times require desperate actions; any attempt at "reform" will be fought and drowned in a quagmire of BS by both the lobbyist and the politicians who are addicted to their money. The only way to truly reform the system is to end all lobbying in one decisive action. If this were done I assure you the lobbyist and the politicians would immediately begin the process of chipping away at the new law and within a few decades they would be giving and taking bribes as usual, but in the interim, perhaps we could begin to rebuild the damage they have done to our country and economy.
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