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I spent the evening correcting my 2 yr olds "MINES" whines. She will thank me when she is older! QUOTE]
I had a bulletin board in my room when I taught 8th grade. It said "MINES AND GOTS ARE NOT WORDS!!!". Then, there were multiple options they could use instead of those choices. I grew up in private schools in NY. Teaching in AZ was like a bucket of cold water. It shocked the life out of me. Never had I heard those words before, much less used in the context they were using them.
I work in a district where the majority of the kids are Mexican or Black and next is Native Amer. I think there are about 14% listed as "white" on their enrollment cards. Kids tell me not to teach them how to "talk white" because I don't know their life pr "that's how we talk here". I try to get through to them that I am speaking English, not white.
Vernacular aside, grammar should be taught longer than it is and in much more depth than it is. I agree that if I can understand the intent that is great, but if kids are not forced to form some semblance of a grammatically correct sentence (not to mention essays), the English language will become a joke.
Last edited by sidrah; 06-22-2010 at 01:23 AM..
Reason: adding an example!
Some times we forget that we have large numbers of special education students in our schools who graduate taking courses designed for their abilities.
Unfortunately, it's not just special education students who speak and write that way. The kids just are not taught proper English and grammar in school anymore. In sixth grade my daughter wrote a paper where she had mixed up there/their/they're or something like that, and she got an A+ on the paper. When I asked why, I was told they grade on content of the writing, not spelling and grammar. This was an English class. What?! Even if it were not an English class, they should expect the kids to spell correctly and use proper grammar.
I live in the midwest where "needs fixed" is considered standard English.
e.g. "this printer needs fixed" .
I am not making this up!
I'd be thankful that I received a thank-you at all. A pen-on-paper note is indeed a rarity these days. Sad.
Quote:
Originally Posted by golfgal
I live in the Midwest and have NEVER heard this phrase.
Quote:
Originally Posted by plaidmom
Might be regional?
It's common in Pittsburgh, so common that even the most educated use it. My friend from NW Illinois uses it, too, though she also lived in Pittsburgh, but only for ~ 1 yr as an adult.
No, no, no... what you are hearing and reading from the locals is not wrong, it's non-standard English. It's because you are in the southeast, and as far as they are concerned, they speak and write perfectly fine, and you are the one who talks funny.
The first time I talked to locals in Greenville SC (less rural than WV and western NC!), I could barely understand them ("you gettin merred?", that means you're not going to be single anymore).
Well yes, that's it exactly. We in the South are all functional illiterates, unable to form a coherent thought or to come anywhere near the erudite brilliance demonstrated by residents of other parts of the country. Merely to acquire a Southern accent is an automatic deduction of 20 IQ points; thirty-five if you cannot be clearly understood by the accentless natives of Texas, New Jersey, or Maine.
Has anybody else noticed a trend to for kids to purposely dumb down their speech when they are around their peers?
My DD is a grammar geek, one of her favorite books is Eats, Shoots and Leaves, she even carries a sharpie with her to fix apostrophes on signs.
You would never know it by the way she talks around her friends. She uses 'aint' and 'fixin to' and double negatives all the time.
I asked her why she talks that way when she knows better and she told me she does it because that's the way her friends talk and she doesn't want to be seen as different or stuck up.
We are talking about kids that are in college! They should all know better, but it seems that some form of peer pressure causes them to reinforce each others bad habits.
I've thought about this some more, and don't agree with those who believe the gift giver should be satisfied she received a thank-you note and excuse the poor grammar.
At some point, the "something's better than nothing - any effort is better than none" mentality became accepted.
In my opinion, E-mail, Twitter, and texting have all played a role in degrading English usage; however, that doesn't mean parents and teachers shouldn't insist on proper English. It's not that kids aren't capable, it's laxity from the adults who should be monitoring their language skills who instead let it lapse.
Mediocrity shouldn't be the goal.
Is it appropriate for you to 'fix' your friends' English when you have conversations with them? Or a stranger's? You say parents and teachers, but in this case it's an extended family member. What do you say to the graduate; "That's a great thank you note, but next time will you please use proper grammar and spelling? If you don't, I will take the gift back."
Do you go to the parent, a relative of yours, and say, "I appreciate so-and-so's thank you note, but honestly, her grammar and spelling stinks. Do you think you can teach her proper English before she writes another note to me?"
Quote:
Originally Posted by alise007
Based on a lot of the responses I guess I should get used to the overwhelming majority of Americans who can't speak or write and just let it go. I will have to cringe in private.
Go ahead and tell the niece or cousin or whatever that even though she appreciated the gift and was sorry you couldn't be there for her big day, and wrote the note to you, it isn't acceptable because of the way she mutilated the language. I dare you. It isn't your place.
Maybe it would be more appropriate to have a conversation with her mother about how the educational system is letting our kids down by not insisting they learn and use proper English.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sidrah
I work in a district where the majority of the kids are Mexican or Black and next is Native Amer. I think there are about 14% listed as "white" on their enrollment cards. Kids tell me not to teach them how to "talk white" because I don't know their life pr "that's how we talk here". I try to get through to them that I am speaking English, not white.
Vernacular aside, grammar should be taught longer than it is and in much more depth than it is. I agree that if I can understand the intent that is great, but if kids are not forced to form some semblance of a grammatically correct sentence (not to mention essays), the English language will become a joke.
Ah yes, I remember sentence diagramming in seventh grade English class. Our teacher tore our work apart for grammar and spelling in our English classes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DubbleT
Has anybody else noticed a trend to for kids to purposely dumb down their speech when they are around their peers?
My DD is a grammar geek, one of her favorite books is Eats, Shoots and Leaves, she even carries a sharpie with her to fix apostrophes on signs.
You would never know it by the way she talks around her friends. She uses 'aint' and 'fixin to' and double negatives all the time.
I asked her why she talks that way when she knows better and she told me she does it because that's the way her friends talk and she doesn't want to be seen as different or stuck up.
We are talking about kids that are in college! They should all know better, but it seems that some form of peer pressure causes them to reinforce each others bad habits.
My daughter is also a grammar geek. Instead of dumbing down to the language of her friends, she insists they communicate on a higher level or she corrects them. Even on the computer she uses only proper English and spells everything out. Sooner or later they get the message and correct themselves.
Is it appropriate for you to 'fix' your friends' English when you have conversations with them?...
...My daughter is also a grammar geek. Instead of dumbing down to the language of her friends, she insists they communicate on a higher level or she corrects them. Even on the computer she uses only proper English and spells everything out. Sooner or later they get the message and correct themselves.
She's always proud of them for raising the bar.
Isn't that a contradiction?
DD has impeccable written language, it's only her speech, when she's around her friends, that is so horrid. To an extent I understand dumbing down to the level of those you're conversing with, so that they'll understand you, but to purposely use double negatives because it's what everyone else uses?
I just wondered if this was a local trend with her clique, or if other people had noticed the same thing.
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