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A lot of us have a lot of experience in a lot of areas, or 'systems'. You are not any more of an authority than anyone else.
Thanks for sharing.
But, nowhere did I say that I was THE authority; I have a right to make observations based on my experience just as much as you do, and since my observations are based on almost 40 years experience in educational systems both secular and religious(the purpose of the litte religious education story, btw), my obsrvations "may" be more appropo than others who have no experience in these systems and who actually home schooled their kids. On thing that working in various kinds of educational systems for 40 years in positions of "authority" does is that it gives one a sense of how things work, and what has to be done to make such changes---in educational systems, both secular and religious.
That is simply all that was observed. It you choose to read more into it, or feel the need to rail against my years in the field, that is also your right.
But, nowhere did I say that I was THE authority; I have a right to make observations based on my experience just as much as you do, and since my observations are based on almost 40 years experience in educational systems both secular and religious(the purpose of the litte religious education story, btw), my obsrvations "may" be more appropo than others who have no experience in these systems and who actually home schooled their kids. On thing that working in various kinds of educational systems for 40 years in positions of "authority" does is that it gives one a sense of how things work, and what has to be done to make such changes---in educational systems, both secular and religious.
That is simply all that was observed. It you choose to read more into it, or feel the need to rail against my years in the field, that is also your right.
You continuously attempt to impress with your '40 years of experience'. You state it over, and over, and over again. *yawn*.
The problem is that PUBLIC education was designed to serve the PUBLIC not the individual. Quit trying to make it individual education. Society doesn't pay for that. What society pays for is an educated society. What we're paying for is not giving the best and brightest every opportunity, it's making sure we live in a minimally educated society. If you want more, you're free to go after it, however, the system doesn't owe you more. That's not what the system is designed to do.
If that's not a glowing review of our current educational system then I don't know what is.
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Fortunately, most teachers are more than glad to work with kids motivated to do more. My experience, albeit limited at this point, is that the best and the brightest do not want more work because they are smart. That makes differentiation, within the same class, difficult. While complaining that education doesn't cater to them, on the one hand, they resist doing more work than the student sitting next to them...at least without extra credit and there's only so much extra credit a teacher can give before grades become meaningless.
Probably because they are bored to tears by all of the lessons that seem irrelevant and uninteresting to them.
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If our best and brightest were into learning more for the sake of learning more, this wouldn't be a problem. Having students who are eager to learn and want more isn't someting you hear teachers complaining about. We love those kids. They rock our world. They are, however, far and few between. In two years of teaching, I've seen one. He came to class prepared, asked deeply intelligent questions and thought nothing of hanging around after school to have his education enriched. He was way beyond the class but never disruptive. He'd wait until my lecture was done and then we'd engage in some deep conversations. Sometimes, I'd have to ask him to continue them after school because we were getting too far off topic and he would.
Most of the "best and brightest" just whine that education isn't tailored to them. Most of them would balk at coming after school for deeper discussion of the material. Most of them don't ask the kinds of questions he did because they don't do the ground work to get there.
I'm sure that many do want to learn more, just not more of what the school is telling them that they need to learn more of.
But playing the system is part of learning to be a productive citizen. As long as humans have lived together in groups, there has been some kind of management system. And there always will be a "system".
Railing against the system is crazy. Changing the system is possible, but it won't be a removal of the system, and any system that I know of will always degrade to some common denominator over time.
Not railing against a broken system is crazy, imo. This student is not talking about removing the school system as a whole, she is simply talking about making changes.
I've never met anyone who is in favor of all of the standardized testing that goes on in schools today yet those tests are used to measure the success and failures of students, teachers and schools. If no one likes the tests then why do we still have them? What's wrong with speaking out for change when something is clearly not working?
You continuously attempt to impress with your '40 years of experience'. You state it over, and over, and over again. *yawn*.
ROTFLMAO!
With experience comes knowledge that can only come through lots of training and lots of experience. Its the antidote to opinion without knowledge. City-Data education is rife with people with opinions but no knowledge of education as it actually exists today in the USA.
My 40 years may make you yawn, but it provides a balance for those who have little or no experience in public and private education but who just constantly either regurgitate info they heard on TV, or just shoot their mouth's off without sharing any substance. I'm more than willing to share that knowledge with anyone who needs it to make things work better for them in their environment. Its one of the by products of serving as a helping person for all these long years.
By sharing the time and effort, it is possible for posters who want a valid opinion based on lots of experience to differentiate from those who really know nothing but just like to talk.
It is what it is, and I'm sure that most people here can see that. Enough! Moving on.
If no one likes the tests then why do we still have them? What's wrong with speaking out for change when something is clearly not working?
We have them because they have been mandated to us by the Federal Government, along with many many other madates that take time and energy away from real education. The people to rail against though is not EDUCATORS.
As a group whether it be a teacher, a counselor, a principal or even a school superintendent, we have no control over these laws. In fact, its even written into the NCLB law that any district that brings suit against it will lose all federal funds for their district until the resolution in the courts takes place. We all know that that could be ten to fifteen years. No district today can survive without the influx of federal funds, even if they don't pay for the mandates.
Many of us voted for Obama in part because it was part of his platform to modify NCLB. He has done that. He has gone in the wrong direction and actually made it worse.
Complaining to the powerless as if its within our power to stop the testing is a worthless effort and just makes educators feel worse, because we try to hard to help; its part of our nature.
Go talk to your local principal or school superintendent. They will tell you the same thing.
The people to rail against are the elected representatives who put all this cr@p into law.
I'm sure that many do want to learn more, just not more of what the school is telling them that they need to learn more of.
But this is exactly why the youth aren't in charge of their own education. For example, few youth really want to work hard to learn to read. Its a royal pain in the head, and its hard for most. Any many, who have no support at home encouraging them and showing them how reading at a high level is important to them, rail against learning this skill.
Few youth really enjoy calculus or more advanced forms of mathematics.
Few youth, given the chance to choose in graduate school would actually choose to learn the intricacies of Quantum Mechanics.
If we let the youth decide what they want, then many will decide to play all the time, because its fun.
Some of the most important things that need to be done for people individually and for society as a whole are not fun at all. But the rewards later, rewards that youth because of their youth cannot see, are immeasurable.
If that's not a glowing review of our current educational system then I don't know what is.
Probably because they are bored to tears by all of the lessons that seem irrelevant and uninteresting to them.
I'm sure that many do want to learn more, just not more of what the school is telling them that they need to learn more of.
Our education system is what it is and it IS a PUBLIC education system. It is designed to serve the PUBLIC NOT the individual. It's up to the individual to figure out how to make education work for them.
We are trying to be all things to all students and that will result in us being nothing to any of them. I'm not putting down public education. I'm pointing out its purpose. The purpose is to serve the masses NOT the individual. If you need something different, you need to go after it.
If the material is uninteresting to them, they need to do the research to make it more interesting to themselves instead of waiting for someone else to cater to them. IMO, this idea that everyone else should cater to me because I'm different does nothing but handicap the child who is different. Learning how to get what you want/need within the system is a valuable life skill because it's likely that no one will ever hand you exactly what you want/need.
My experience is that students don't want to learn more if it means more work. They'll gladly have it handed to them but the second you ask more of them than the student sitting next to them, most of them get indignant. I'm not talking more of the same work. I'm talking enrichment. Most of the time, they ask me "What am I getting for this?". If my answer isn't sufficient, they pass. My experience is that among the best and the brightest what most of them want is the least amount of work for an A. Every now and again a student comes along who will take the challenge to learn more and is willing to do more to achieve that goal. Those students are a breath of fresh air.
If what the student wants to learn more of isn't what the school is teaching, then they need to take the initiative and go learn what they want to learn. No one is stopping them.
When I was a kid, I used to use the two sets of encyclopedias we had (back in the pre-internet days) to build things. My creations always fell and a book would open to a topic and I'd read it. If it interested me, I kept going. Over the course of several years, I think I pretty much read teh entire set. I'd also researched things at the library and asked my teachers about things I read. The student who really wants to learn more is free to do so. They're just expected to put in the effort and that, I find, most students don't want to do. They'd rather whine that what's being offered doesn't suit them than do extra work. Extra credit in my class is extra. It's material above and beyond the class. It's labs that I don't feel all of the class can do. I even add sections to labs as enrichment. Yet, few students ever take me up on it. Those that do are glad they did but most will decide to accept the grade they have when they realize that extra credit is not bringing in a box of tissue in my class.
My dd takes internet road trips. She'll start looking up a topic from class, find some tidbit of information on something else and off she goes. She learns more on her road trips than she does the assignment given but without that assignment, she never would have taken the road trip. That the school teaches less doesn't stop her. IMO, it's a cop out to say a student didn't do more because the school didn't teach it. You are describing an unmotivated student, IMO, and that's their problem to deal with. I'm more than willing to discuss the meaning of life, the universe and everything with students motivated enough to ask me the questions.
My classes, however, have to be designed to best serve the majority of the students in my classroom. There is room for individualization but the student has to be willing to do what is necessary to achieve that. I find that most students with IEP's and even the lower performing students without them who care about their grades usually are willing to do more. It's the smarter kids who don't want to do more. Too often smart = low effort to get an A.
Last edited by Ivorytickler; 08-14-2010 at 04:54 PM..
We have them because they have been mandated to us by the Federal Government, along with many many other madates that take time and energy away from real education. The people to rail against though is not EDUCATORS.
As a group whether it be a teacher, a counselor, a principal or even a school superintendent, we have no control over these laws. In fact, its even written into the NCLB law that any district that brings suit against it will lose all federal funds for their district until the resolution in the courts takes place. We all know that that could be ten to fifteen years. No district today can survive without the influx of federal funds, even if they don't pay for the mandates.
Many of us voted for Obama in part because it was part of his platform to modify NCLB. He has done that. He has gone in the wrong direction and actually made it worse.
Complaining to the powerless as if its within our power to stop the testing is a worthless effort and just makes educators feel worse, because we try to hard to help; its part of our nature.
Go talk to your local principal or school superintendent. They will tell you the same thing.
The people to rail against are the elected representatives who put all this cr@p into law.
Zarathu
I'm aware that NCLB is mandated by the federal government. Teachers, principals and superintendents make up only a small part of system. Standardized testing needs to be addressed by those who mandate it at the federal level which means we need to take it up with our elected officials, not the teachers, not the principals, not the superintendents. I was responding to your comment that railing against the system is crazy. It's not.
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