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Although, abusing power is another form of bullying.
One other thing I was thinking about: I know this is a stretch, but would the 5th Amendment have protected me from writing the letter of apology, given that a letter of apology is basically self-incrimination? Remember, my choice was to write the letter of apology or be suspended for 5 days. I know that your drivers license is suspended when you refuse a breathalyzer test, but that is because driving is a privilege, not a right. But a public school education is a right, not a privilege. A 5 day suspension would have been denying me the right to a public school education for 5 days without any due process. I'm guessing that I' stretching it. I am very surprised that you said that the school didn't break any laws by requiring me to clean the cafeteria, given that I wasn't paid, was never offered due process, was too young to legally work anyway, and was doing work that was normally done by paid staff members.
To be fair he asked me what the law is. I responded, as I must under the Code of Ethics, that I can't give an opinion without knowing the state involved (I can't legally give an opinion outside of New York without probably violating criminal laws in other states) and researching a specific factual issue. He asked if the 5th Amendment prohibition against coerced confessions and/or the prohibitions against forced labor apply. I can't answer without sitting down with a person and askign a lot of questions.
No, I know nothing about school law. That is why I was asking jbgusa. I realize years later that the only reason why they would coerce me into writing a letter of apology was to have a confession on record. And since there is absolutely no way that a teacher would be so touched by an obviously forced letter of apology that she would request that my punishment be dropped (when the previous day I was still asserting my innocence), it was clear that what they really wanted was a written confession, not for me to be punished. The punishment was just a stick to coerce me into writing the letter. There was very obviously some shady legal issues going on, and I'm curious as to what they were.
To be fair he asked me what the law is. I responded, as I must under the Code of Ethics, that I can't give an opinion without knowing the state involved (I can't legally give an opinion outside of New York without probably violating criminal laws in other states) and researching a specific factual issue. He asked if the 5th Amendment prohibition against coerced confessions and/or the prohibitions against forced labor apply. I can't answer without sitting down with a person and askign a lot of questions.
Always in discussions like this, there people who defend bullies and bullying because, well....their kid is one. And I think one some level they are scared they might get sued some day.
The most important thing I can teach my children is to keep their hands to themselves. Hitting someone is assault - a crime. Touching someone inappropriately can put one on a sex offender registry. If some other kid hit one of my children and they were over the age of 12, I'd get the police involved. A kid by that age who still hits others, or trips them in the hallway or something like that, has not "outgrown" the behavior and probably never will, so I'd make a police report as well as talk to the parents. If it continued, I'd document everything and talk to a lawyer.
So parents, teach your children never to touch another child. There are litigious parents out there...like me.
No, I know nothing about school law. That is why I was asking jbgusa. I realize years later that the only reason why they would coerce me into writing a letter of apology was to have a confession on record. And since there is absolutely no way that a teacher would be so touched by an obviously forced letter of apology that she would request that my punishment be dropped (when the previous day I was still asserting my innocence), it was clear that what they really wanted was a written confession, not for me to be punished. The punishment was just a stick to coerce me into writing the letter. There was very obviously some shady legal issues going on, and I'm curious as to what they were.
You had a very minor brush with school rules and you have mushroomed it now into a constitutional crisis. After all these years, for your own mental health, let it go. Obsessions are never healthy.
You had a very minor brush with school rules and you have mushroomed it now into a constitutional crisis. After all these years, for your own mental health, let it go. Obsessions are never healthy.
I don't consider being threatened with the maximum punishment allowed by law to be a "very minor" brush with school rules. Also, you imply that I broke school rules when I did not. Not surprising coming from you. I also do not consider forced labor to be a "very minor" brush with school rules.
I don't consider being threatened with the maximum punishment allowed by law to be a "very minor" brush with school rules. Also, you imply that I broke school rules when I did not. Not surprising coming from you. I also do not consider forced labor to be a "very minor" brush with school rules.
I agree with you. Being threatened that way is hardly a minor thing.
Most kids just don't know that putting something into writing has legal ramifications, so it's very shady for a school or anyone else to coerce a person under 18 to put something in writing and/or sign their name to something. This is just so wrong on many levels. I also know that contracts signed by minors have no legal status and this concept might also apply to the letter they forced you to write.
You had a very minor brush with school rules and you have mushroomed it now into a constitutional crisis. After all these years, for your own mental health, let it go. Obsessions are never healthy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mitsguy2001
I don't consider being threatened with the maximum punishment allowed by law to be a "very minor" brush with school rules. Also, you imply that I broke school rules when I did not. Not surprising coming from you. I also do not consider forced labor to be a "very minor" brush with school rules.
This is what is telling. The education professional considers what you did to be very minor. Whatever teacher did it way back when had probably forgotten about by the next school year. But as a student it has stuck with you until adulthood. For me, even today, some of my biggest memories of school are the stupid, out of scale, silly punishments doled out by the teachers and principal. Not who I went to school with. Not what I learned. But the plain, unjust, power tripping silliness. Which is also why I don't believe having you write the apology had anything to do with creating a legal record. You're giving them way too much credit. It was simply because making you write the letter was a punishment itself (it still affects you years later) and just because they could. A show of power. Nothing more.
I agree with you. Being threatened that way is hardly a minor thing.
Most kids just don't know that putting something into writing has legal ramifications, so it's very shady for a school or anyone else to coerce a person under 18 to put something in writing and/or sign their name to something. This is just so wrong on many levels. I also know that contracts signed by minors have no legal status and this concept might also apply to the letter they forced you to write.
Very good point. I'll rep it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff
This is what is telling. The education professional considers what you did to be very minor. Whatever teacher did it way back when had probably forgotten about by the next school year. But as a student it has stuck with you until adulthood. For me, even today, some of my biggest memories of school are the stupid, out of scale, silly punishments doled out by the teachers and principal. Not who I went to school with. Not what I learned. But the plain, unjust, power tripping silliness.
I can't agree with you more and I'll rep this too. I had a science teacher in 7th Grade who was extremely decent. For whatever reason he gave me a one-hour, after school detention. The detention went pleasantly enough. We talked about his wife, kids, etc. But I still remember it. Fast forward 45 years and I run into him as a committee member for a major Jewish organization. This was in fall 2014. We have since become quite friendly. However he doesn't remember a thing about the detention. I do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff
Which is also why I don't believe having you write the apology had anything to do with creating a legal record. You're giving them way too much credit. It was simply because making you write the letter was a punishment itself (it still affects you years later) and just because they could. A show of power. Nothing more.
I doubt that the moron who was the assistant principal understood what he or she was doing with the apology letter. However, someone I'm sure designed it into school protocols for legal purposes.
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