What is your opinion of the teaching profession?

[BJW50]

Originally Posted by Coldjensens

There is simply way way too much administration in the public school systems. However that is the only place a teacher has to move up to. Otherwise, there is no promotion opportunity. Maybe they need all those layers of admin positions to provide incentive to teachers. - If you teach really well, we ill move you out of the classroom. If you are a crummy teacher we will make sure you stay int he classroom. Makes good sense to me.

That's what my wife, sister and daughter have always said. And each administrator has their own administrative assistant.

[harhar]

Originally Posted by marigolds6

Maybe you are confusing magnets and charters? Renaissance High is a magnet school, not a charter school. I think the Orange County schools you are referring to are charters (Oxford Academy?), but not in the normal sense of charter schools as they have competitive admissions with an entrance exam and minimum GPA (making them much more like magnet schools).

Here in Missouri, the charters are consistently in the bottom 1% of schools with student proficiency rates below even the inner city districts. Pay is about half that of public schools.
Meanwhile, the magnets are the best in the state, even beating the elite private schools, despite being located in the worst districts in the state. That is what competitive admissions can do for a school.

Just to clarify, Oxford Academy is a public (magnet) school. You need to take an entrance test.

The 3 highest schools with the highest API in Orange County that I see are Oxford (990), Troy (926), University High Irvine (910), two public magnets and one public. The next on the list is a charter OCHSA (907). The next 4 highest are just public.

Most of the public schools just happen to be in affluent middle/upper middle class areas.

---

You look at why these schools are doing well, entrance exams (for the magnets), good areas (involved parents), class to student ratios under 30, and kids who care.

Its no surprise.

[Serious Conversation]

Originally Posted by Starman71

I've been a teacher in East Tennessee for almost 20 years now. I've seen the public's perception of the profession change over the course of this time from one in which a person would be lauded for being a teacher to one in which you balk at telling anyone about what you do for fear of being derided, questioned, or looked down upon. No matter - I'm still proud of what I do, even though it does come at a cost.

"What cost?" you non-teachers ask derisively. Well, I can think of two, and I'll start with the least important aspect (at least to me)...

1) Financial: I have more graduate hours than a PhD. I have enough legitimate graduate hours to have a PhD in one field and a MS in a completely unrelated one. And here's the kicker: I don't even have my Doctorate. Just an EdS. If the amount of education a person has and their salaries were supposedly proportional, then not only are educators are the exception, they're just plain getting screwed. But... I really don't complain about this part of the financial aspects. I knew it going in, so it's a non-issue with me. But... I do complain of all the money that comes out of my pocket - non-reimbursable money - in buying things for the classroom that we as a system can't afford, because parents would rather not pay another dime in property taxes to help us reprobate, union-loving teachers. (btw - I'm not in a union, so there )

All professions have this to some degree, but the public perception that they can get something for nothing is clearly evident in public education. I have to buy some of my own lab supplies for my chemistry and physics labs. I have to pay my own way to take my teams on over-night competitions. I've paid for their food. If you think I'm the exception rather than the rule, you clearly have issues.

2) Psychological: any teacher worth anything has stress. And not just the stress prevalent in any other profession: from superiors, co-workers, etc.. Teachers have stress coming all the way from D.C. in the manner of NCLB, RTTT, IDEA, CCSS, and a whole plethora of alphabet soups, mostly made by people that have never been K-12 public educators. We have the stress from the state and local administrations in the form of graduation rates & standardized testing scores (that mean very little to actual education) all while making sure that the students feel good about themselves. But most importantly, we have the self-imposed stress of wanting to do our best for these kids, which was what got us into the profession in the first place.

If a teacher doesn't have this self-imposed stress - this intrinsic motivation to do our damnedest to make sure we prepare, as best as we possibly can, these students for the world out there - then this teacher isn't doing their job properly. Are there some out there? Yup, but not nearly as many as the main-stream media or society as a whole leads us to believe.

Being from east TN, you should know how bad the local economy is, and how well-insulated teachers here are from many of the troubles of private sector professionals. Those of us who are making far less money with few benefits and little job security in the private sector question and are resentful of teachers when many are still getting raises more frequently than private sector employees, have high job stability, and excellent benefits, paid with by the tax dollars of citizens who have largely been beaten down by this economy.

Education does not always scale with salary. A person can be a leading expert in a field that is not very lucrative or only moderately educated in a lucrative field. Why are you paying for the kids' food on a trip? If their parents can't or won't provide adequate funding for what the child needs, why do you feel you need to personally bridge that gap? The same premise goes for the school system - if the system cannot provide adequate funding or resources for what it is demanding of you, why are you trying to make up the difference?

I'll agree that real education is far more than test scores, but there has to be at least some standardized metric out there to gauge performance. What constitutes average "A" level work at one school might only constitute average "B-" level work at another school. Letters of recommendation can come from highly reputable and established sources, or from highly dubious and weak sources. Standardized testing does provide a measuring stick where one can establish a minimum level of competence.

[lhpartridge]

Originally Posted by Emigrations

Being from east TN, you should know how bad the local economy is, and how well-insulated teachers here are from many of the troubles of private sector professionals. Those of us who are making far less money with few benefits and little job security in the private sector question and are resentful of teachers when many are still getting raises more frequently than private sector employees, have high job stability, and excellent benefits, paid with by the tax dollars of citizens who have largely been beaten down by this economy.

Education does not always scale with salary. A person can be a leading expert in a field that is not very lucrative or only moderately educated in a lucrative field. Why are you paying for the kids' food on a trip? If their parents can't or won't provide adequate funding for what the child needs, why do you feel you need to personally bridge that gap? The same premise goes for the school system - if the system cannot provide adequate funding or resources for what it is demanding of you, why are you trying to make up the difference?

I'll agree that real education is far more than test scores, but there has to be at least some standardized metric out there to gauge performance. What constitutes average "A" level work at one school might only constitute average "B-" level work at another school. Letters of recommendation can come from highly reputable and established sources, or from highly dubious and weak sources. Standardized testing does provide a measuring stick where one can establish a minimum level of competence.

Would you be able to eat in front of a hungry child with whom you had a relationship? Or as with most people with an ounce of compassion, would you feed the child?

[Starman71]

Originally Posted by Emigrations

Being from east TN, you should know how bad the local economy is, and how well-insulated teachers here are from many of the troubles of private sector professionals. Those of us who are making far less money with few benefits and little job security in the private sector question and are resentful of teachers when many are still getting raises more frequently than private sector employees, have high job stability, and excellent benefits, paid with by the tax dollars of citizens who have largely been beaten down by this economy.

I'm also a citizen that pays taxes -property, sales, etc. - so I'm doubly supporting those... did you say, excellent?? - benefits I recieve. Remember, I pay into those benefits as well - the system/state doesn't pay for it all.

Education does not always scale with salary.

Nope, but we tell these kids that education equals salary, therefore more education equals more money. We know it doesn't actually happen that way for many jobs, but for most, it sure does. Look at any pay scale chart and see that - on average - the more education a person has the more likely they are to make more pay. But as I said before, that's really immaterial to me, as I knew it going in.

A person can be a leading expert in a field that is not very lucrative or only moderately educated in a lucrative field.

Why are you paying for the kids' food on a trip?

Because sometimes, they can't afford it. Many deserve to go on these trips (I do the Academic team, not sports) as they show that jocks aren't the only ones that can bring honor and glory to their schools, and that academic competition is something of which to be proud. But occasionally, these trips can cost. The school can't afford to send them (although they can find the moneys for the sports team to go) and they must pay out of their own pockets for food & lodging (partial). If I can pay for the pizzas we eat at lunch break during the competitions so they can save a buck or two, I will. Why criticize this?

If their parents can't or won't provide adequate funding for what the child needs, why do you feel you need to personally bridge that gap?

I don't know... personal responsibility to those I'm coaching. Consideration for those in my care. Compassion for those less fortunate... take your pick.

The same premise goes for the school system - if the system cannot provide adequate funding or resources for what it is demanding of you, why are you trying to make up the difference?

Because who will? The taxpayer? Theses students deserve to go on these trips. And someone has to pay. We all chip in to do so, except, that is, the taxpayer.

I'll agree that real education is far more than test scores, but there has to be at least some standardized metric out there to gauge performance. What constitutes average "A" level work at one school might only constitute average "B-" level work at another school. Letters of recommendation can come from highly reputable and established sources, or from highly dubious and weak sources. Standardized testing does provide a measuring stick where one can establish a minimum level of competence.

Yes, standardized testing can be used as a measuring stick, one of many that are available to us. The problem is that the powers-that-be (the ones not actually in the classrooms) want to use this as the primary - if not the only - measuring stick in which to determine success.

[Serious Conversation]

Originally Posted by lhpartridge

Would you be able to eat in front of a hungry child with whom you had a relationship? Or as with most people with an ounce of compassion, would you feed the child?

You'd feed them if it was an unexpected occurrence, but what's the harm in letting the parent know that if they can't give the child the money they need, then the child cannot come on any more trips? Sure, the kid may be a poor, but bright, student who works hard - however, they do not "deserve" the trip simply because they worked hard and are poor. This line of thinking doesn't prepare kids for the real world. In the real world, you can work very hard, be an honest person, and still be poor, yet no one is going to give you something you want (in this case, the trip) without the ability to pay for it.

This scenario implies that because the kid made a good effort, someone will reward him because he "deserves" it, even if he cannot afford the reward. Life doesn't work that way and this sets young people up for hard falls when they get into the world.

[lhpartridge]

Originally Posted by Emigrations

You'd feed them if it was an unexpected occurrence, but what's the harm in letting the parent know that if they can't give the child the money they need, then the child cannot come on any more trips? Sure, the kid may be a poor, but bright, student who works hard - however, they do not "deserve" the trip simply because they worked hard and are poor. This line of thinking doesn't prepare kids for the real world. In the real world, you can work very hard, be an honest person, and still be poor, yet no one is going to give you something you want (in this case, the trip) without the ability to pay for it.

This scenario implies that because the kid made a good effort, someone will reward him because he "deserves" it, even if he cannot afford the reward. Life doesn't work that way and this sets young people up for hard falls when they get into the world.

Sometimes there is no parent. Our academic challenge team was very similar. One of the members is a girl who was in the custody of an older sister. Her parents are dead. She is now on her own, living on Social Security. When it went through her sister, sometimes she wouldn't be given the money. So we provided her transportation, and not infrequently, her lunch.

Trust me, kids growing up in poverty are very familiar with real world consequences. It's our job to help them understand that getting a good education can help them change what those consequences will be. Exposing the top kids at our school to the top kids at the top schools was one of the best things that ever happened to them. I'm willing to spring for a buffet for that.