Math and Science scores in America? (colleges, tuition, degree, schools)

[Eresh]

Originally Posted by HappyTexan

NCLB went into effect 2001. Carrot and stick..kids don't pass the test, the schools don't get their money.
Raise the bar so that more fail ? Nope..lower that bar so more pass.

Exactly! Lower the bar and they learn less, which *could* account (at least in part) for decreasing PISA scores. IMO, it still goes back to that we no longer track students.... so they feel that need to lower the bar to so that more can pass.

[Clevelander17]

HappyTexan, what do you think of the questions I posed to you earlier?

[skoro]

The drop in scores is an inevitable result of NCLB "reforms" and the top heavy bureaucratic education establishment in the USA. NCLB makes standardized high stakes testing the be-all and end-all in both elementary and secondary schools. These minimum standards tests are only a challenge to below average students. Average students don't struggle with them and advanced students see tham as a joke. But since they are THE measuring stick for accountability and funding, all of the emphasis has shifted towards getting the bottom performers up to this minimum standard. "Teaching to the test" is what administrators expect of the teachers in the classrooms.

Furthermore, mid and upper level administrators force "flavor of the month" approaches down onto the campus in order to justify their positions and salaries. These mandates result in counterproductive duplication of effort and "one size fits all" programs that don't fit anyone very well.

[key4lp]

To nana053: regarding the Chinese prejudices & racism as being more about achievements that would be true but not
everyone in China has that opportunity. Those who have the resources get the education. Here in the US it is open to all.
Also when you mention the diversity in Japan and China you are listing 1-6 minorities. That does not relate to the US.
To understand what's happening in schools today read the education posts and listen to the teachers. Teachers in Asia
and Europe are held in high regard, respected and well paid.
The Asian drive for education is admirable however they focus on rote memorization and testing. So we should never
compare our youth or the US for that matter because we were and still are a very innovative and creation nation.
Even though we have problems to fix, we are still doing something right.

[dxdtdemon]

I attended a US university that had lots of international students, and one of the things that kept coming up was if I made a reference to a very famous thing in a subject that wasn't close to their focus of study, they either hadn't heard of it or had said that they hadn't taken any classes in that subject since they were in their early teens. In the rest of the world, it seems that their education is narrowly focused after about the equivalent to 7th grade or so, and so I'm wondering if these tests are only given to the students that are in the path towards that subject abroad compared to testing everyone here.

[K-Luv]

Originally Posted by Bettafish

I've talked to people from Asia(east Asia, south Asia, the middle east), Eruope and Australia. They all say the same thing: high school education in the US is too bad.

Personally I know many Chinese American parents teach extra math to their kids at home, even though they attend "good schools".

High schools in the U.S. began to decline in the late 70s and early 80s. Prior to that, American high schools were far more rigorous.

Originally Posted by PinkBunny

It's because secondary school education is a joke in the US. Kids are learning algebra at a much younger age in other countries. There are plenty of American students who could not solve a basic arithmetic operation if their life depended on it.

Also, you are expected to do well in school in other countries. Here, there is this attitude that your kid should do whatever he wants to and that pushing him is somehow "wrong."

The cultures are just different. Education is not as much of a priority here as it is in other places.

American students are actually learning algebra at a younger age now, but math is something that needs to be used on a consistent basis or else it is forgotten. This same concept is the reason why so many educated adults lose against a handful of 5th graders on that one game show.

These days, in America, students are simply expected to do well enough, which is based more on cultural change than a decline in academic abilities. You have to look at the Generations that gave birth to the children for clues. Those who were born from the parents of the Greatest Generation were probably the last group as a whole who grew up valuing hard work and dedication.

Then there is the aspect of identity. The U.S. has shifted largely to celebrity over the last three decades while other countries are moving more into hard education. Up until the 70s being a scientist or a deep thinker or a talented playwright meant something in this Country. It is all about pop stars, athletes, and rogue artists these days.

Originally Posted by key4lp

I never could understand why our students do not study a foreign language at the elementary level. Their minds are like
sponges when they are that young. Europeans and Asian countries begin studying English in grade school.

I know some people who went to private schools. They all began to learn a foreign language in the by the third grade. I began elementary school in Southern California. In the first grade all English speaking students had the option to learn Spanish. And that was at a public school. When I later moved to Northern California, that option did not exist.

I've been to Europe a few times and many people I met said they began to learn English by trying to understand song lyrics. Besides, most Europeans from different countries use English to speak to one another.

Originally Posted by key4lp

American education is not a joke. We have some problems that should be addressed and there are ways in which we
can improve education for our children and youth. I would suggest reading "A Nation at Risk" which was an in depth
report done during the 70's.

I don't think American education is as bad as some would say, and there are definitely top notch public high schools out there.

Originally Posted by Bettafish

Many come here because the best universities in their home country rejected them.
So attending a tier 2 university there is not a desirable choice, if the parents have $.

It is very true in East Asia. College ranking is everything there and attending a tier 2 school means your future is doomed.

Many Asians come here to attend second tier schools, too.

Originally Posted by Coldjensens

When all is said and done all of the US education bashing makes no sense in the big picture. Are we begin consistently out smarted by people form other education systems in business, inventions, pharmaceutical developments, engineering, management, . . .

Nope. Mostly the other countries are still copying our developments (and improving them). If our students are so stupid and have been for the past 20 - 40 years, why are we not lagging way way behind?

Partially because U.S. companies/corporations (depending on field) will employ the best from around the World, and, partially because innovation only needs to happen in a few locations first before being adopted by the rest.

[HappyTexan]

Originally Posted by Clevelander17

HappyTexan, what do you think of the questions I posed to you earlier?

I had also read somewhere about US standing prior to 2000 but didn't find anything.
I only posted from 2000 because the PISA scores are there.

[Tinawina]

Originally Posted by skoro

The drop in scores is an inevitable result of NCLB "reforms" and the top heavy bureaucratic education establishment in the USA. NCLB makes standardized high stakes testing the be-all and end-all in both elementary and secondary schools. These minimum standards tests are only a challenge to below average students. Average students don't struggle with them and advanced students see tham as a joke. But since they are THE measuring stick for accountability and funding, all of the emphasis has shifted towards getting the bottom performers up to this minimum standard. "Teaching to the test" is what administrators expect of the teachers in the classrooms.

Furthermore, mid and upper level administrators force "flavor of the month" approaches down onto the campus in order to justify their positions and salaries. These mandates result in counterproductive duplication of effort and "one size fits all" programs that don't fit anyone very well.

This is a contributor. But really, I do think as others have said, other nations track students and we don't. Not everyone takes standardized math tests abroad, but here, everyone has to learn at least algebra whether they've shown an ability for it or not.

I don't think we should start tracking BTW. I think every child should be exposed to a wide swatch of basics. Kids grow into subjects at different stages and some would never have the opportunity to blossom if we cut them off early.

Really, what we need to do here is put smarter effort into high need schools, stop trying to make "one size fits all" curriculums, and give educators the flexibitlity to design what works for their particular populaton of kids. The basic idea behind NCLB is a good one - that there should be high standards that every school is expected to meet, and demonstrable progress from the students - but the way we have decided to set the standards and measure progress is ridiculous and counter-productive.

[Clevelander17]

Originally Posted by HappyTexan

I had also read somewhere about US standing prior to 2000 but didn't find anything.

Same here. I've heard anecdotally that scores have dropped since the 1960s or 1970s, but have never been able to find any data. I've also heard (anecdotally, as well) that there was a test similar to the PISA taken in the mid-1960s and that the United States was 12th out of 12 countries.

Originally Posted by HappyTexan

I only posted from 2000 because the PISA scores are there.

There are myriad problems with using PISA and pointing out a raw ranking, the biggest being that the number of countries fluctuates from one testing year to the next. It's also interesting to look at dis-aggregated data of U.S. poverty levels and contrasting that with countries of comparable poverty levels. In other words, if you look at test scores of schools with poverty levels from 10-24.9%, the U.S outscores all other countries with poverty levels in that range, which includes G20 countries such as Canada, Japan, and Australia.

[Bettafish]

Originally Posted by K-Luv

Many Asians come here to attend second tier schools, too.

But these schools are considered better than second tier schools in their home country. Or at least people do not know.