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As soon as our technical students start attending Asian universities even close to the level Asian students are attending ours, I'll starting worrying.
Here are 95% of the "smart Asians" by the way:
Students in some of those countries go to school 10-12 hours a day. They have little to no social lives and are under tremendous pressure to excel. They sit in their seats in school, they don't talk, they don't ask questions, they don't "participate" - they just memorize and do whatever they are told.
Here in the US we want our kids to have social lives, to play sports, to enjoy their childhood, and we don't ever want to pressure them too much. We don't tell them they are failures when they don't get the best grade in the class. We insist that teachers use all our new "best practice" and have students do everything in groups, "engage" and "participate" in lessons, discover things on their own (we don't want to stunt their intellectual growth by "telling" them anything).
We completely reject the parenting and teaching methods that result in these high test scores. And yet, we complain that we need to reform education to produce high test scores. But we don't actually want to do any of the things that result in those scores, so we just keep on with ineffective reforms, in the belief that there is some path to high scores aside from plain old work, work, work.
It's so bizarre that we keep comparing ourselves to these countries and their scores and finding that we fall short, when any parent or teacher who did things in the manner of those countries would instantly be labeled "bad."
I'm not saying we should parent and teach like they do - but maybe we should examine the gap between what it takes to get high scores and what we consider acceptable forms of parenting, teaching and learning. The fact that the gap is so big suggests that maybe our focus on high scores as a mark of achievement is erroneous. If high scores are the result of learning methods we don't find acceptable, then why do we insist on using those same test scores as a measure of our success? Maybe high scores don't actually measure what Americans consider success.
I didn't find that to be true when I went to college and my classes had mostly Asians and Indians (from India). They socialized and they asked questions and they participated.
I majored in Computer Science on the Engineering side and had plenty of EE class as well.
Who told you that nonsense? I bet you haven't traveled much in your life. Kids in Asian countries play like kids everywhere. They don't simply memorize everything either, that is stereotypical BS.
So true. Maybe the stereotype comes from the fact that those countries DO continue to insist on perfect memorization of CERTAIN things that absolutely NEED to be memorized (like the multiplication tables, for example?). Else, expect poor results for as long as you take that discipline: the story of the relationship between Americans and Math.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mack Knife
If you want to see how memorization works, walk into any elementary school or even a college in the USA and watch how brainwashing takes place. Kids are not taught to think, they are taught what to think. Forget about a student every challenging the personal views of the teacher or Professor. Why is it that in most colleges, a student with a conservative perspective must hide it or risk the subtle and sometimes not so subtle repercussions from the "Professors"?
Again - so, so true!
Sadly, I have noticed most American students fail to memorize what is IMPORTANT to memorize during the early years (because they are not expected to), but attempt instead to memorize during later years the kind of things that SHOULDN'T be approached with the memorization technique, but rather via critical thinking. It is the result of an educational system that has deviated dramatically from the classical trivium model of education.
The stereotype about "Americans being natural critical thinkers" while those "top-performing" countries being "mindless, memorizing automatons" is a difficult myth to dismantle.
Maybe this is because the American culture is steeped in having questioned age-old European canons and hierarchies; but really...we may want to revisit whether questioning the "oppressive nature" of having to memorize multiplication tables is as valuable as questioning the oppressive nature of the British rule.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mack Knife
If what you said is true, then how do Asian students do so much better in American schools? They do what students in the US do, they go out, watch movies, and enjoy entertainment and so on just as much. The difference is that when they go to class, they go to learn.
And they do extra work at home; not just more of it, but also more difficult than what is done in class.
This too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mack Knife
The difference is how people value education. In Asian countries, school is a serious place, designed for learning not playing or figuring out why Johnny has two daddies or two momies.
I am not sure Americans DON'T value education in theory.
I just don't think they are prepared to accept the fact that a solid education involves a difficult curriculum and a lot of grit, effort and time. What they used to call "virtue".
I think Americans want to acquire that coveted education easily and "efficiently", with enough time left for extra-curricular activities (which are usually done in non-rigorous ways and associated with "fun")... and only as means-to-an-end (scoring well on a test which later should translate into money).
I think Asians also approach education as pure virtue, in addition to "means-to-money": put in the effort so you can become "learned" ... and yes, you'll make money too once all is said and done.
If what you said is true, then how do Asian students do so much better in American schools? They do what students in the US do, they go out, watch movies, and enjoy entertainment and so on just as much. The difference is that when they go to class, they go to learn.
I'm assuming you're referring to Asian students from Asia, in which case your statement is unfounded. Have you been to a college campus with a sizable student population from Asia? On Friday nights, the Asians go to the library or a coffee shop, and the Americans go to house parties, bar, and clubs. Ever observed how involved in school activities the students from Asia are compared to American students?
As soon as our technical students start attending Asian universities even close to the level Asian students are attending ours, I'll starting worrying.
Here are 95% of the "smart Asians" by the way:
Why would you want to include in this equation people who are not even relevant to the process of education to begin with because they never even went past a few meager years of schooling, if at all? Your parallels are misleading.
Nobody said the population you are pointing to belongs to the "smart Asians" category. How could they be when they are poor and not-schooled?
But let me put it this way: these guys you see toiling in the field are about as "smart" as the leagues of American students attending many second-hand "universities" .
The former call themselves "peasants" and toil away. The latter call themselves "college graduates" and wonder why all this education hasn't made them successful yet.
I'm assuming you're referring to Asian students from Asia, in which case your statement is unfounded. Have you been to a college campus with a sizable student population from Asia? On Friday nights, the Asians go to the library or a coffee shop, and the Americans go to house parties, bar, and clubs. Ever observed how involved in school activities the students from Asia are compared to American students?
Football pep rallies or IEEE student chapter meetings ?
Why would you want to include in this equation people who are not even relevant to the process of education to begin with because they never even went past a few meager years of schooling, if at all? Your parallels are misleading.
Nobody said the population you are pointing to belongs to the "smart Asians" category. How could they be when they are poor and not-schooled?
You just answered your own question.
Take the top 10% of Asians and get an average of 95% score in math.
Take all Americans and get an average of 80% score in math.
Who scores better Asians or Americans?
Now take all Asians get an average score of 70% in math.
Now who scores better, Asians or Americans?
I didn't find that to be true when I went to college and my classes had mostly Asians and Indians (from India). They socialized and they asked questions and they participated.
I majored in Computer Science on the Engineering side and had plenty of EE class as well.
Ask them how often they participated in class when they lived in China/Korea, etc. Apples and oranges.
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