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Old 02-18-2014, 06:43 AM
 
770 posts, read 1,130,849 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by North Beach Person View Post
You are correct. I taught in "those" schools early in my career and school is the only stable thing in many of their lives. Unfortunately that environment can, and does, burn out even the most dedicated teacher.

I guess my point was, and you made it, that all kids need stability and mine was that even solidly middle class kids can come from unstable environments.

I know, I did 7 years in a Title 1 school. Although it was often rewarding getting minority kids to that teachable moment, the other issues connected with non-stop classroom management just sucks the life out of you. Many of the TFA teachers did their time, and even threw "payback liberation parties" when their terms expired. Some were good and cared, while others were merely marking their time. Mixed bag.
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Old 02-18-2014, 07:27 AM
 
Location: Great State of Texas
86,052 posts, read 84,454,776 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Webster Ave Guy View Post
I know, I did 7 years in a Title 1 school. Although it was often rewarding getting minority kids to that teachable moment, the other issues connected with non-stop classroom management just sucks the life out of you. Many of the TFA teachers did their time, and even threw "payback liberation parties" when their terms expired. Some were good and cared, while others were merely marking their time. Mixed bag.
Isn't that the truth. You're lucky to get 10 solid minutes of teaching in before having to stop to deal with behavior issues.
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Old 02-18-2014, 10:03 AM
 
Location: Middle America
37,409 posts, read 53,553,761 times
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Its of generalizations...it's not just minority students/inner city students/lower socioeconomic students who need dedicated educators who are committed to sticking around. It's not just poor kids who are neglected/abused/troubled/not being reached and need stable, would role models. And it's not just TFA/alt cert educators who struggle with classroom management. Most beginning educators go through a lot of trial and error in behavior management, regardless of training. It's not something most people learn well any way but hands-on. My biggest pet peeve is when seasoned educators ( a group in which I include myself) eyeroll at new teachers and start being snippy about their instructional control. I've yet to see a beginning teacher come out and be perfect at classroom management. It's something everyone learns by doing. Instead of ripping new teachers down, mentoring and tips would be helpful. It should be about the students, not a competition for who runs a tighter classroom.
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Old 02-18-2014, 12:08 PM
 
770 posts, read 1,130,849 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TabulaRasa View Post
Its of generalizations...it's not just minority students/inner city students/lower socioeconomic students who need dedicated educators who are committed to sticking around. It's not just poor kids who are neglected/abused/troubled/not being reached and need stable, would role models. And it's not just TFA/alt cert educators who struggle with classroom management. Most beginning educators go through a lot of trial and error in behavior management, regardless of training. It's not something most people learn well any way but hands-on. My biggest pet peeve is when seasoned educators ( a group in which I include myself) eyeroll at new teachers and start being snippy about their instructional control. I've yet to see a beginning teacher come out and be perfect at classroom management. It's something everyone learns by doing. Instead of ripping new teachers down, mentoring and tips would be helpful. It should be about the students, not a competition for who runs a tighter classroom.
I concur with 95% of this. As a National Board Certified Teacher, I mentored many teachers, to include the TFA. I am sure you can agree that some people are natural teachers while others have to work at it--especially when it comes to classroom managment. As with most things, the more you do it the better you become. I think the most important two traits that a teacher can bring into the classroom is passion and subject matter expertise. When you know your stuff front and back and side to side, you can project competancy and excitement.
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Old 02-18-2014, 12:26 PM
 
Location: Middle America
37,409 posts, read 53,553,761 times
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Even natural teachers can struggle with classroom management, which is essentially behavioral management. You can't meaningfully instruct, even if you have the best lessons ever, until you can establish instructional control. Even the most passionate teacher who is the most excited about his or her content area is going to have difficulty reaching students who have decided they WILL NOT give a crap about the class, and those students can hinder learning for those who do have an interest. Being able to manage the behavior of those who do not choose to participate meaningfully is key in having the time and focus to teach the ones who do. This isn't something that comes without a lot of practice, and it's also fluid. The same tactics don't necessarily work for all groups, and all individuals. It's a tricky business. Things would be so much simpler of the job discription included the ability to say, "Want to learn? Stay. Don't want to learn? Leave, so you're not a distraction to the ones who do," but that's generally a frowned-upon approach, at least in the world of compulsory public education. I'm a big fan of "If you don't want to be here, get out and make room for those who do," but that's obviously not something that squares with public school.

That said, no, TFA-trained teachers are for the most part not effectively prepped beforehand for the behavioral issues to which they will almost certainly be exposed. But neither are traditionally certified teachers, really, at least not as a result of their certification program. The traditional student teaching practicum CAN be helpful practice, but it also depends on how it is executed, and student teaching is far from uniform. My practicum was nearly useless in that context, due to how it was run and supervised, and the quality of the cooperating teachers to which I was assigned. TFA teachers may be poorly prepped for classroom management, but so, too, are loads of traditionally trained and certified teachers.
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Old 02-18-2014, 01:52 PM
 
Location: On the Chesapeake
45,338 posts, read 60,522,810 times
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I have 30 years and teach in what's considered a "good" school and I have years that classroom management is a challenge.

Good kids will always, or usually always, be good. They know how to pace themselves, they know how to prioritize, they know how to be "students", if you will.

Then there are the kids who just plain don't care, for whatever reason. Those are the ones, and you only need a couple in a class, that turn a good situation into chaos. Sometimes the other kids help to limit the damage with peer pressure, sometimes a friend of the problem can get to him.

You also, as a teacher, need to know when to push and when to back away. You should have enough ability to read body language, kids are real transparent, and if you see a kid is having a bad day just maybe back away. You may always have a kid who if he's miserable then everyone has to be miserable. You learn to finesse those ones.

Then sometimes, the best skill is knowing which fights to pick. You can be a hard teacher but if you're reasonable, and the kids know it and are on "your side" you can ramp it up and they'll learn. And they'll think it's easy because you care and they know it.

As a teacher there's good crazy and bad crazy. Bad crazy, being inconsistent, giving assignments which can't be completed in the time allotted, giving tests on material you haven't covered is bad crazy. Treating the kids, no matter their ability, like they have some sense and they're smart (even if they aren't really) gets them on your side. And you'd be amazed what the kids can do when that happens.
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Old 02-21-2014, 02:05 PM
 
770 posts, read 1,130,849 times
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North Beach,

I think you get it. You have to understand KIDS to be effective. Praise, discipline, humor and high expectations are the key.

As an aside, thank you for serving your community as an educator. People like me understand what you do far more than a lay person.

Have a lovely weekend.

WAG
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Old 02-21-2014, 02:20 PM
 
Location: Middle America
37,409 posts, read 53,553,761 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by North Beach Person View Post

Then there are the kids who just plain don't care, for whatever reason. Those are the ones, and you only need a couple in a class, that turn a good situation into chaos.
Or, if you work in a special ed - BD classroom and/or an alternative school setting, it's more than a handful of kids.

At one point, I worked EXCLUSIVELY with kids who were in their "last chance" situations - for whom no other setting had worked. That's entire classrooms of students who don't come in wanting to be there, don't have a track record of caring about being there, and are generally resentful of any expectations that are placed on them. Lots of them HIGHLY intelligent, but lacking any motivation to work, have only had negative classroom experiences, little success. Toss an undertrained teacher with zero experience in there. Chum. Unfair to everyone involved.
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Old 02-24-2014, 06:35 AM
 
770 posts, read 1,130,849 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TabulaRasa View Post
Or, if you work in a special ed - BD classroom and/or an alternative school setting, it's more than a handful of kids.

At one point, I worked EXCLUSIVELY with kids who were in their "last chance" situations - for whom no other setting had worked. That's entire classrooms of students who don't come in wanting to be there, don't have a track record of caring about being there, and are generally resentful of any expectations that are placed on them. Lots of them HIGHLY intelligent, but lacking any motivation to work, have only had negative classroom experiences, little success. Toss an undertrained teacher with zero experience in there. Chum. Unfair to everyone involved.

I concur.
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Old 02-24-2014, 08:48 AM
 
Location: My beloved Bluegrass
20,126 posts, read 16,149,450 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TabulaRasa View Post
Or, if you work in a special ed - BD classroom and/or an alternative school setting, it's more than a handful of kids.

At one point, I worked EXCLUSIVELY with kids who were in their "last chance" situations - for whom no other setting had worked. That's entire classrooms of students who don't come in wanting to be there, don't have a track record of caring about being there, and are generally resentful of any expectations that are placed on them. Lots of them HIGHLY intelligent, but lacking any motivation to work, have only had negative classroom experiences, little success. Toss an undertrained teacher with zero experience in there. Chum. Unfair to everyone involved.
It is, but what is the solution? Rare is the proven, experienced teacher who says to themselves I am good enough that Sweet Suburban School will happily hire me but I will go work at Hell on Earth City School, for the same money, because they need me. This is especially true if they have to add and if I can't get their scores to equal Sweet Suburban's scores they will fire me.
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