Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
>>* Students at the 90th percentile in the United States — the very top — are below the average student in Shanghai.
* Poverty rates alone do not explain low U.S. test scores. In a telephone briefing, Andres Schleicher explained that the OECD attempted to adjust test scores for income and put all the students of the world on a level playing field. It turns out that the US has slightly lower poverty and diversity than other OECD countries on average. The average U.S. test score dropped after making this adjustment.
* There is also a problem at the bottom end in the United States. The scores of low-income Americans are exceedingly low. The U.S. has a higher percentage of kids that can’t even hit the lowest levels on the math tests than other OECD countries do on average. So, it is true that the scores of poor U.S. students are dragging the average down. Still, absent poor students, U.S. scores would still be low.<<
You do realize that other countries don't test all of their students, right? In fact, many of them don't educate all of their children. That's one of the flaws with PISA results.
If you don't think the top kids aren't hurt by our current model, check with your friends and relatives who live in areas with a lot of high tech industries and ask them for their observations on the workforce. Our area has SAS, Cisco, IBM... biotech and pharmaceutical companies... We also have four Asian markets as big as a decent size Kroger within five miles.
A neighbor who works for Cisco and is occasionally called upon to help with recruiting says the joke is that American students are high self esteem, low skilled. These are the top students, the ones with degrees in computer technology.
Asian students are eating our kids for lunch. Metaphorically speaking, of course, as they seem to be awful nice people.
For now, they are coming over here for the higher end jobs. How long will it be before the businesses move over there?
The idea that the top kids will turn out all right regardless of an ineffective and inefficient public education system is incorrect.
The notion that top students should serve as role models, teacher's aides, and motivators for the less fortunate borders on the criminal. Why should their futures be sacrificed so that less capable students can benefit from their higher level problem-solving and discussions?
Last edited by GotHereQuickAsICould; 04-24-2014 at 11:25 AM..
The top 10 % are capable but the public schools hold them back. Our school usually places the top students next to special ed students in "inclusion classes" and groups them accordingly for group projects. Do you think the 99 percentile scoring kid is learning anything from the 10 percentile, below-grade-level IEP student? That is the MO in many public schools. And G/T programs are minimal and being cut in many places due to budgets and common core.
Our school district doesn't let students advance in math, for instance. They feel that advancing gets them too far away from this year's standardized testing material. Even in middle school, where they offer "honors math", the difference is minimal and the kids take the same tests. And with common core coming, they claim they are "going deeper" and they are FEARFUL that kids won't do well if they don't expose them all to the same common core material.
The administrators and teachers forget that the 95+ percentile kids (the real GT students) will do well on testing even if they go way ahead. But public schools have little incentive to do that anymore. It's more work and requires more resources and diverts from the standard approach. And my school district is a "top" one in the northeast. It's so frustrating!
To me, the problem is that they need to let the top 10-20% advance! When you hold back your top students, it is NO SURPRISE that we are weaker on international rankings. Math is math, science is science and there is SO MUCH to learn if we want world leaders -- let the kids that can, advance and build their knowledge and stop holding them back!
You do realize that other countries don't test all of their students, right? In fact, many of them don't educate all of their children. That's one of the flaws with PISA results.
You do know that they use representative samples and adjust for various factors such as poverty, right?
You do realize that many other countries, including those that score considerably higher than the U.S., also educate all their students, also have immigrants, also have poverty.
I am wondering if you think our students are doing just terrific and sampling error is why they are not scoring any higher.
The top 10 % are capable but the public schools hold them back. Our school usually places the top students next to special ed students in "inclusion classes" and groups them accordingly for group projects. Do you think the 99 percentile scoring kid is learning anything from the 10 percentile, below-grade-level IEP student? That is the MO in many public schools. And G/T programs are minimal and being cut in many places due to budgets and common core.
Our school district doesn't let students advance in math, for instance. They feel that advancing gets them too far away from this year's standardized testing material. Even in middle school, where they offer "honors math", the difference is minimal and the kids take the same tests. And with common core coming, they claim they are "going deeper" and they are FEARFUL that kids won't do well if they don't expose them all to the same common core material.
The administrators and teachers forget that the 95+ percentile kids (the real GT students) will do well on testing even if they go way ahead. But public schools have little incentive to do that anymore. It's more work and requires more resources and diverts from the standard approach. And my school district is a "top" one in the northeast. It's so frustrating!
To me, the problem is that they need to let the top 10-20% advance! When you hold back your top students, it is NO SURPRISE that we are weaker on international rankings. Math is math, science is science and there is SO MUCH to learn if we want world leaders -- let the kids that can, advance and build their knowledge and stop holding them back!
Frustrating? I should say.
"Inclusion classes" and group projects with SpEd students and high performing kids? What a nightmare it must be for students on both ends of the spectrum.
Imagine the humiliation of one of us being forced to do a group project with Steve Jobs, may he rest in peace.
Why we would want to limit our kids as well as our nation is beyond me.
Example: My son (GT, honors student, A in the class) was put in a Social Studies group project (middle school / inclusion class) with 2 special ed kids (one mild LD and one moderate autism) and a queen bee mean girl who has a 58 average in the class, and another below average student (girl who has never made honor roll). The group got an F on the project. The roles were defined, so not like my kid could do everyone's work.
So the teachers said any groups with F's can come after school to pull their grade up. So, my son goes after school to add to the Powerpoint -- the ONLY one that did -- for 2 days and pulls the GROUP's grade up to an A.
Later that month, the SpEd student in that group (the mild LD one) got "Student of the Month". MY son has never received SOM even though these things happen all the time!!! But often, these awards go to SpEd kids to make them feel good.
Oh and he sits between the 2 SpEd kids on a daily basis, so any adhoc daily grouping is with this same group (and has been since Sept), even though I've asked it be rotated.
Last edited by snuffybear; 04-24-2014 at 11:54 AM..
Example: My son (GT, honors student, A in the class) was put in a Social Studies group project (middle school / inclusion class) with 2 special ed kids (one mild LD and one moderate autism) and a queen bee mean girl who has a 58 average in the class, and another below average student (girl who has never made honor roll). The group got an F on the project. The roles were defined, so not like my kid could do everyone's work.
So the teachers said any groups with F's can come after school to pull their grade up. So, my son goes after school for 2 days and pulls the GROUP's grade up to an A.
Later that month, the SpEd student in that group (the mild LD one) got "Student of the Month". MY son didn't get SOM even though he did everyone's work!!! But often, these awards go to SpEd kids to make them feel good.
My sense is that by forcing high end students to haul along the less fortunate, the hope is they will develop empathy and understanding, the ability to work on group projects with a wide range of people.
Instead, what I've seen is the less fortunate learn they can ride on the coattails of others and the more fortunate learn that others will mooch off their hard work. Hmmm? Hard not to wonder where that will lead.
My kids hated group projects with a passion.
And yes, they do tend to give SOM awards to the SpEd kids to help them feel special. I don't know that it really works unless they are totally clueless. That student knew who pulled their group grade up to an A.
My sense is that by forcing high end students to haul along the less fortunate, the hope is they will develop empathy and understanding, the ability to work on group projects with a wide range of people.
Instead, what I've seen is the less fortunate learn they can ride on the coattails of others and the more fortunate learn that others will mooch off their hard work. Hmmm? Hard not to wonder where that will lead.
My kids hated group projects with a passion.
And yes, they do tend to give SOM awards to the SpEd kids to help them feel special. I don't know that it really works unless they are totally clueless. That student knew who pulled their group grade up to an A.
Yes. Exactly. But my kid is ALREADY nice to the LD kids. And they shouldn't be taking advantage of that. I see plenty of other kids that need a LOT of work in the empathy department.
They also don't want to be "unfair" (I've heard that if they don't "balance" groups" and put all the smart kids together, others complain that it's "unfair"). The fact is, I don't know a single student or parent that likes these group projects.
Yes. Exactly. But my kid is ALREADY nice to the LD kids. And they shouldn't be taking advantage of that. I see plenty of other kids that need a LOT of work in the empathy department.
They also don't want to be "unfair" (I've heard that if they don't "balance" groups" and put all the smart kids together, others complain that it's "unfair"). The fact is, I don't know a single student or parent that likes these group projects.
I don't either.
And despite all the fuss and bother, few of them learn how to work on teams which involves:
- Shared understanding of the team's mission
- Commitment to the team's goals and process
- Clearly defined roles and responsibilities
- Agreed-upon ground rules and an established decision-making model
- Effective group process including commitment to open communication, mutual accountability and appropriate self-evaluation
Usually, one or two students are trying to haul along students who either don't care or don't have a clue.
Our nephew works on group projects as part of team that develops computerized medical devices. He resisted for the longest time because he hated, absolutely hated, working on group projects. Saw it as a frustrating, waste of time.
However, once he started working with group members who shared his enthusiasm, ability, and knowledge, he loves it. Loves the way they bounce ideas off each other, loves how once they get in the flow they can accomplish months' worth of work in a few weeks' time.
The sad thing about this business of "balancing groups" is that not only does it frustrate everyone involved, no one learns how wonderful it is to work on a project with a team of people who have similar abilities and skills. The LD students might not be able to accomplish the same tasks that the top 10% kids can, but they can accomplish some pretty wonderful things together.
Last edited by GotHereQuickAsICould; 04-24-2014 at 01:19 PM..
Yep...the 1-2 good students do 90% of the work and the other 2-3 freeload. And I think many of these middle school kids are too immature for the above criteria (shred understanding of problem, goals etc). Most HS kids probably are also. Plus, they created the competiitve schooling environment - yet they want kids to "collaboarate". It doesn't work, and everyone ends up having a negative experience. Oh, and having SpEd or lazy students pull down one's grade doesn't create empathy, it does the opposite!
The only times I've seen it work are in our district's elective classes which are pass/fail and the group projects are all done in class. Then there are no "stakes" and the kids can collaborate for collaboration's sake. The other time I saw it semi-work is when the Science teacher had kids work together on the "group" project but each kid got their own grade based on their own work. They just presented together. Plus, that time my kid was put with 2 honors students...the only time that's happened...and the 3 kids got an A+ no problem. For once, he was grouped with kids at his level where they could share knowledge and work at their level.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
