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Same here...if you are on advanced Math track in middle school, you will be at higher level in HS. And you will be recommended for Honors English. And the reason I care about my kid's grades is because he will be applying to private school.
Katiana, some of your information is based on when your husband went to school (70s?) -- yes things were way different then! I got to work independently and finish entire math books (1st/2nd/3rd math books in 1st grade) on my own! That is not even allowed here. Our HS sent many kids to Ivy League and MIT and U-Michigan, Notre Dame etc...but the only AP we offered was AP English. It is totally different now, with most competitive high schools offering 20+ AP classes. And YOUR kids graduated already and are not dealing with the increasingly dumbed down education. And the "Inclusion Movement" was not in vogue when your kids were in elem and middle school (not to mention sounds like CO is not implementing it in same way as other states).
Also, you do not seem to be up on what is going on with Common Core, more standardized testing e.g., PARCC (dumbing down -- or up for some kids -- education to a "Common" level), Race to the Top, etc. I read the education articles from NY Times and Washington Post, and these are frequent topics in the national news. There is a larger debate going on about all this, and what is going on politically to motivate the changes in schools, the charter school movement, Broad-educated superintendents being placed in many school districts, Teach for America teachers with minimal credentials replacing long tenured teachers, teacher tenure, SGO's (Student Growth Objectives) and how teacher performance is measured, etc.
And, keep in mind a small district (in NJ we are dealing with small towns each with own Superintendent, and very high taxes in desirable school districts) has very different incentives and requirements (driven by state and local district) as a large, regional district in CO, where you live. Here, there are SpEd kids in about half of sections of different classes. And I can observe all I want, when the kid with autism is sitting next to my kid, and I know his parents.
The dumbing down of education is why many parents would prefer private schools. Private schools do not have to comply with IDEA or the state-mandated standardized testing, etc. I have three kids that test 95+ percentile. My oldest is at the 99 and is writing apps in his spare time. Public school doesn't care; why should I -- a parent who can afford private school -- let them benefit from my kids perfect score on the state testing, when he could get so much more out of private school? That is called the "brain drain" that is expected in the coming years, due to more standardized testing with Common Core (PARCC etc).
Is CO a PARCC state, or let me guess, you don't even know?
Last edited by snuffybear; 05-01-2014 at 05:05 PM..
Same here...if you are on advanced Math track in middle school, you will be at higher level in HS. And you will be recommended for Honors English. And the reason I care about my kid's grades is because he will be applying to private school.
Katiana, some of your information is based on when your husband went to school (70s?) -- yes things were way different then! I got to work independently and finish entire math books (1st/2nd/3rd math books in 1st grade) on my own! That is not even allowed here. Our HS sent many kids to Ivy League and MIT and U-Michigan, Notre Dame etc...but the only AP we offered was AP English. It is totally different now, with most competitive high schools offering 20+ AP classes. And YOUR kids graduated already and are not dealing with the increasingly dumbed down education.
Also, you do not seem to be up on what is going on with Common Core, more standardized testing e.g., PARCC (dumbing down -- or up for some kids -- education to a "Common" level), Race to the Top, etc. I read the education articles from NY Times and Washington Post, and these are frequent topics in the national news. There is a larger debate going on about all this, and what is going on politically to motivate the changes in schools, the charter school movement, Broad-educated superintendents being placed in many school districts, Teach for America teachers with minimal credentials replacing long tenured teachers, teacher tenure, SGO's (Student Growth Objectives) and how teacher performance is measured, etc.
And, keep in mind a small district (in NJ we are dealing with small towns each with own Superintendent, and very high taxes in desirable school districts) has very different incentives and requirements (driven by state and local district) as a large, regional district in CO, where you live. Here, there are SpEd kids in about half of sections of different classes. And I can observe all I want, when the kid with autism is sitting next to my kid, and I know his parents.
The dumbing down of education is why many parents would prefer private schools. Private schools do not have to comply with IDEA or the state-mandated standardized testing, etc. I have three kids that test 95+ percentile. My oldest is at the 99 and is writing apps in his spare time. Public school doesn't care; why should I -- a parent who can afford private school -- let them benefit from my kids perfect score on the state testing, when he could get so much more out of private school? That is called the "brain drain" that is expected in the coming years, due to more standardized testing with Common Core (PARCC etc).
Is CO a PARCC state, or let me guess, you don't even know?
I read through this post, and I was going to answer until I came to that last line. I will not debate someone who is insulting me. Done, finis!
I really don't understand such extensive interest in a child who is not yours! And you are not his parent, nor have they apparently asked you for advice.
My oldest son was in a class with a child who was mainstreamed and the mainstreaming was not working. He came home upset at something that happened in school EVERY DAY. When your child is that upset over what goes on in the classroom you become interested in what is going on.
My son's class was completely different than what is being described here. My son had an autistic classmate who hit, had fits and threw things in the classroom. My son would come home in tears because he was afraid that this child would hurt the teacher's baby (she was pregnant). They would regularly have to clear the room because this child would start throwing things.
I was interested in this child and interested in ANYTHING I could do to minimize the affect on my child. This was one factor (not the only factor) in moving my child to private school where the learning environment is not disrupted by one person.
My oldest son was in a class with a child who was mainstreamed and the mainstreaming was not working. He came home upset at something that happened in school EVERY DAY. When your child is that upset over what goes on in the classroom you become interested in what is going on.
My son's class was completely different than what is being described here. My son had an autistic classmate who hit, had fits and threw things in the classroom. My son would come home in tears because he was afraid that this child would hurt the teacher's baby (she was pregnant). They would regularly have to clear the room because this child would start throwing things.
I was interested in this child and interested in ANYTHING I could do to minimize the affect on my child. This was one factor (not the only factor) in moving my child to private school where the learning environment is not disrupted by one person.
Some interpret "least restrictive environment" to mean that short of stabbing another student in the eye, any misbehavior must be tolerated lest we be accused of discriminating against those with disabilities.
Our daughter was in a 3rd grade class with a student who regularly "mooned" the class and sometimes people passing by the window. That was a fun year.
A child with autism or any other diagnosis who has meltdowns, throws things, and hits others needs to be in a less stimulating environment.
Torey Hayden wrote a series of books on her experiences as a SpEd teacher in self-contained classrooms. They are wonderful stories about the changes that can happen when children's needs are addressed in a controlled environment. She has the heart and soul of a teacher and lets you see the world through her eyes.
My oldest son was in a class with a child who was mainstreamed and the mainstreaming was not working. He came home upset at something that happened in school EVERY DAY. When your child is that upset over what goes on in the classroom you become interested in what is going on.
My son's class was completely different than what is being described here. My son had an autistic classmate who hit, had fits and threw things in the classroom. My son would come home in tears because he was afraid that this child would hurt the teacher's baby (she was pregnant). They would regularly have to clear the room because this child would start throwing things.
I was interested in this child and interested in ANYTHING I could do to minimize the affect on my child. This was one factor (not the only factor) in moving my child to private school where the learning environment is not disrupted by one person.
Yes, similar experience here. I wouldn't say the 7th grader my son has been with on/off for years is violent, but he does have distracting behaviors. Currently, he just seems disinterested/tuned out, and doesn't show effort. I think the inclusion model just isn't working anymore...the class level is far too advanced for him and over his head.
And yes, as GotHereQuick explains...according to "least restrictive environment", classified kids are allowed to be mainstreamed unless they do something violent toward other children/staff. I do know of one that was removed and sent to a school for children with autism for this reason. But there were *many* incidents before that was done. The cost to the district is about $60K/yr minimum to send out-of-district, and that is a lot of money for a small district. So it is done as a *last* resort. In the past 5+ years, there is a trend to moving these kids (autism, etc) in-district to save costs. Btw, NJ has one of the highest incidences of autism in the US (1 in 45 8yo's'; 1 in 28 boys!). http://www.autismnj.org/prevalence-rates
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OK, true story from TODAY (my 3rd grader's full-day inclusion class -- yes, all three of my kids have inclusion classes this year!). The boy with autism said to the teacher (it was her birthday), "I wish we could have a birthday party on UR-ANUS!"
Now, being that this is my 3rd child, and the inclusion model is working much better in THIS classroom, I don't get as phased by this. But my daughter does come home with daily stories. He has different procedures, he disrupts class meeting, he has cue cards on his desk, etc. And, socially, it's not a great classroom for my daughter, as half the kids are on a different planet and years behind her in school work. But the teacher, and the SpEd teacher are both excellent, and she goes to G&T pullout once a week...so I'm ok with it, though it's not ideal -- due to daily whole-class instruction -- like every elementary classroom, the "lessons" are given whole class and the pace is slowed when the "high" students get it right away and the "low' students require several repetitions and ask basic questions.
Last edited by snuffybear; 05-01-2014 at 05:35 PM..
To ask what to me is obvious, why do the gifted and talented need more? Haven't they "made it"?
What it the "education "system" for?
These are all good questions. Was the public education system even intended to originally help the brightest or just bring the masses to a certain, minimum level?
I am not from an education background but I often am one of those folks who "think outside the box".
My father was gifted and got a doctorate in Chemistry. That was his reward. I was average and got a BFA. My mom graduated HS and that was better than her dad (immigrant with 4th grade education) and her mom (immigrant with 8th grade education).
Some things I think about are these type things.
The gifted are entitled to a free and appropriate public education just like everyone else.
A C-D thread a year or so ago had many people posting who had children with special needs. As I recall, they were firm in their belief that their children were learning more by being mainstreamed and that it didn't hurt the other kids to deal with their sometimes difficult behavior.
Our kids were in classrooms with children who would blurt out inappropriate comments, wander around the room, make distracting noises, bust things, blow their nose on their socks... as well as have occasional meltdowns, throw desks over, threaten others. Then there was the child who "mooned" others.
One son got a huge kick out of it. He was bored most of the time anyway and welcomed the distraction.
One daughter refused to go back to second grade. Said it was a waste of time as she already knew all that stuff and besides her reading buddy was a doofus who didn't know how to take turns. We homeschooled her that year.
Our older daughter hated all the fuss and bother and would often be allowed to go to the library and read.
From time to time, I read that people think there needs to be more discipline in school. I don't know how that would work given that every classroom seems to have at least a couple kids with an I.E.P ticket to misbehave based on their documented disability.
My friend's daughter has an IEP and she 1) doesn't have to change for PE, 2) doesn't have to partake in PE activities, 3) can go to office or library instead of PE, if she would like. This is because she has anxiety about PE and not getting picked for teams, and doesn't like to change in locker room, which is required for PE. But, she gets an A in the class regardless, because they can't grade her on lack of participation, as per IEP. And our PE program is wholly graded on participating (they will set up teams at hi/med/low competitivenes) and showing effort.
IMO, the parents aren't doing her any favors by giving her this ticket out.
See the theme here? Other kids have to work for the A in PE (one B will knock you off the Honor Roll), but the IEP student has a contracted A.
Last edited by snuffybear; 05-01-2014 at 06:04 PM..
This is a great debate thread, by the way. Everyone across the 'it doesn't matter because' and the 'it's vitally important because' spectrum is making well-thought out points with useful links, references and anecdotes, and I'm learning loads. Thanks, all!
Your school sounds excellent -- great job finding it and navigating it!
On the mainstreaming topic, I've know a lot of parents who have had to fight the school in order for their children to NOT be mainstreamed. Mainstreaming isn't what is best for all students, but some schools insist on mainstreaming every child.
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