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The bottom kids are the ones who end up requiring the most resources from society. If they can’t get enough education so they can become productive members of the workforce, they’ll probably go on SSI, food stamps, and qualify for other resources for life. I’ve been working for social service agencies for more than a decade, so I see what happens to people when they don’t get good supports early.
The gifted kids WILL be fine. When I did my teaching internship, the teacher in the next room got assigned out of her honors/gifted-only prep schedule to a schedule that had regular classes. She was absolutely outraged. It was ridiculous. Another thing is that gifted kids really don’t NEED to be fawned over. They can usually do the work without much intervention and probably prefer it that way. I didn’t go to public school but would have qualified for Gifted if I had. I have always responded very poorly to people fawning. The teachers I liked the best were generally demanding and had high standards.
To Village Idiot- Gifted where I lived was just a separate, self-contained curriculum. Teachers did have to get certified to teach Gifted separately. I think it was a 600-hour program provided through the district. I’m not sure if it works the same everywhere. I am in Chicagoland now and AFAIK, Chicago proper has good Gifted magnets. The last place I lived (also a large district) had great Gifted magnets as well. I have never heard of the type of pull-out programs you mentioned.
That actually isn't true. Academically gifted students are almost always bored with the regular curriculum content and pace, which does not meet their educational needs. Consequently, they get conditioned to underachieving as a learned habit which gets more difficult to break as time goes on.
Just one resource that explains the problem... there are many more:
That actually isn't true. Academically gifted students are almost always bored with the regular curriculum content and pace, which does not meet their educational needs. Consequently, they get conditioned to underachieving as a learned habit which gets more difficult to break as time goes on.
Just one resource that explains the problem... there are many more:
“Be fine” from a utilitarian standpoint means that they will not be a drain on society and end up on SSI for life. IF your goal in schooling is to produce productive citizens, not “be all you can be” - then I would say that this is success.
Actually requiring more in high school isn’t going to make much of a difference. I can say this having gone to HS with mostly Gifted kids and seeing that a ton of us ended up losing our scholarships once we reached college. So many kids were burnt out at that point. I talked about it with a guy who was a few years behind me and he agreed that it was not an uncommon issue. At that time I think he’d just finished his freshman year.
ANd yep, I would say that working these days, I underachieve. I have a few other corowkers I know fall wishin the Gifted range and another one fully admits to underachieving. I have met tons of other people who are underachievers. I think that the issue is that there are people who do a ROI analysis and decide that if you do X work you can get a decent GPA or if you do an exponentially higher amount of work you can get a great GPA. So the underachievers are like “ok here is the minimum I can do to get the grades I want” and call it a day. I do that. My sister does that. I know numerous other people who do that. I don’t think there is any specific method to change that. If you are paying me the same amount as a regular achiever, why on earth am I going to achieve to my full potential?
“Be fine” from a utilitarian standpoint means that they will not be a drain on society and end up on SSI for life. IF your goal in schooling is to produce productive citizens, not “be all you can be” - then I would say that this is success.
Are you sure about that? What do you think happens to college flunk/drop outs who have no skills in the trades? Do you think they end up in jobs that enable them to financially support themselves without needing public assistance? Common sense would tell you that no, they don't. They end up flipping burgers, cleaning hotel rooms, etc.
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Actually requiring more in high school isn’t going to make much of a difference. I can say this having gone to HS with mostly Gifted kids and seeing that a ton of us ended up losing our scholarships once we reached college. So many kids were burnt out at that point. I talked about it with a guy who was a few years behind me and he agreed that it was not an uncommon issue. At that time I think he’d just finished his freshman year.
I doubt your perspective because many gifted kids aren't burned out by college as they've never actually been challenged to learn anything new that's presented to them in an academic/school setting. So, by definition, they can't be burnt out. They just never had the opportunity to learn HOW to learn in K-12, as clearly explained in the link I provided.
Many of us have spent our careers, doing the impossible, every day.
Thank goodness our military, medical workers, inventors, EMS, scientists, and your average Joe are willing and capable of seeking and implementing viable solutions to real problems, that other's deem IMPOSSIBLE. So many instances my boss would assign me a task and exclaim, "I'm not sure how you are going to do that"... Me: "OK, fine boss. How about you heading home and eat diner, watch TV, and get some sleep. The solution will be on your desk in the morning, don't you worry one little bit." We had a great night shift, always known for accomplishing the impossible. We were know as the 'Legends'... This is not at all rare in the realm of many careers, it is in fact... the expectation!
I am often amazed at what kids create to do the impossible. I've learned a lot from them. And I appreciate each of them. (they all have hidden talents).
The favorite line of teachers and other civil servants is "that can't be done". In the private sector, that line is not accepted.
I'm telling you guys, pay teachers an extra 20k per year and you'll be amazed at how much better of a teaching corps you get.
We are not going to get a very good teaching corps paying them what we do, which is actually a pay cut relative to inflation.
When I started in education, teaching paid about 40-43k to start. Now it pays about 50-52k to start. After 15 years they'll get 65k. Now do CoL. And you wonder why talented ambitious people don't get into it?
That said I am for breaking the unions' power, only letting them bargain for salary and working conditions, and putting in place merit incentives. But I will note that teacher unions are only powerful in about 15-20 states.
I looked up my son's kindergarten teacher, she she's making $144,000 per year. She's been teaching 24 years and is 46 years old. She works 180 days per year, gets a full pension and retiree health insurance where she can retire at 55. I'm in a field that most would label as "professional", and I don't get anywhere near $144,000 nor the benefits that she gets, and I work a lot more than 180 days per year.
OK so we should do nothing? Merit pay in the private sector does not function with perfect information or perfect fairness either.
I find it interesting that teachers are the first people to claim "life isn't fair", yet they themselves can't handle anything "unfair", however you define it. Perfect example of being able to dish it out but not take it.
Gifted programs must be very different around the country. I know that the high school where I did three long-term sub jobs has a gifted teacher split between the middle and high school. I have no idea what she does or how many students are involved with her program. My last direct involvement with a gifted teacher was when my son was in 5th grade. He was assigned to a gifted teacher who would pull him and a few other students out of class. My son hated the program. We scheduled a meeting with the gifted teacher, his regular teacher, and the principal. My wife and I came away from the meeting thinking it was a waste of time. We pulled him out of the program. He carried a GIEP designation through graduation but was never again in a pull-out gifted program. I'm not even sure one existed. He took seven AP courses, which was the maximum he could fit in his schedule.
In comparison, I see considerable resources supporting students with IEPs. Every school has at least 4-5 learning support teachers and at least a half dozen aides who work closely with these students. The one district in the area with a number of foreign students has a couple ESOL teachers.
There is no comparison between the difference between support for the IEP and GIEP students in any of the districts in my multi-county area.
My elementary school had a so called "gifted" program. In reality, it was for teachers pets, not people who were truly gifted. It was entirely up to the whim of your 2nd grade teacher with no other way to get in. And, from what I heard, it was just more busywork and arts and crafts. No actual gifted education. But the teachers pets who were chosen for the program love that kind of work. Most others considered it to be a waste of time. It was eliminated back in 1991 due to budget cuts, and never reintroduced.
Other posters have said so called "gifted" education being extra homework and/or harsher grading. That does not benefit anybody at all.
My elementary school had a so called "gifted" program. In reality, it was for teachers pets, not people who were truly gifted. It was entirely up to the whim of your 2nd grade teacher with no other way to get in. And, from what I heard, it was just more busywork and arts and crafts. No actual gifted education. But the teachers pets who were chosen for the program love that kind of work. Most others considered it to be a waste of time. It was eliminated back in 1991 due to budget cuts, and never reintroduced.
Other posters have said so called "gifted" education being extra homework and/or harsher grading. That does not benefit anybody at all.
Bingo! That's NOT gifted education. Meeting gifted students' educational needs involves a substantial alteration of the regular curriculum scope and sequence. There are almost NO gifted programs in the US education system that do either, let alone both.
“Be fine” from a utilitarian standpoint means that they will not be a drain on society and end up on SSI for life. IF your goal in schooling is to produce productive citizens, not “be all you can be” - then I would say that this is success.
Actually requiring more in high school isn’t going to make much of a difference. I can say this having gone to HS with mostly Gifted kids and seeing that a ton of us ended up losing our scholarships once we reached college. So many kids were burnt out at that point. I talked about it with a guy who was a few years behind me and he agreed that it was not an uncommon issue. At that time I think he’d just finished his freshman year.
ANd yep, I would say that working these days, I underachieve. I have a few other corowkers I know fall wishin the Gifted range and another one fully admits to underachieving. I have met tons of other people who are underachievers. I think that the issue is that there are people who do a ROI analysis and decide that if you do X work you can get a decent GPA or if you do an exponentially higher amount of work you can get a great GPA. So the underachievers are like “ok here is the minimum I can do to get the grades I want” and call it a day. I do that. My sister does that. I know numerous other people who do that. I don’t think there is any specific method to change that. If you are paying me the same amount as a regular achiever, why on earth am I going to achieve to my full potential?
Yes, very good point. That is also why I disagree with people who say that they learn best from teachers or professors who are hard graders (the type who never give A's and have exam averages in the 40s or worse). High achieving students will do that return on investment analysis that you described, and will focus their time on other classes where their effort will be rewarded.
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So many instances my boss would assign me a task and exclaim, "I'm not sure how you are going to do that"... Me: "OK, fine boss. How about you heading home and eat diner, watch TV, and get some sleep. The solution will be on your desk in the morning, don't you worry one little bit." We had a great night shift, always known for accomplishing the impossible. We were know as the 'Legends'... This is not at all rare in the realm of many careers, it is in fact... the expectation!
. And I appreciate each of them. (they all have hidden talents).
