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In my local high school, Italian was taught for three years as a regular language class. The fourth year was a college course level with students receiving credits from SUNY Albany. I don't know why the SUNY Albany course was offered rather than an AP Italian Language and Culture.
My point was there are more math options than English language ones. Then high school choose which AP courses to teach. There are 36 AP courses and high schools offer some, but not all the available courses. My local high school did not offer AP world history, but my son's private school did.
AP Courses -
English Language & Composition
English Literature & Composition
VS.
Biology
Calculus (AB & BC)
Chemistry
Computer Science A
Computer Science Principles
Environmental Science
Macroeconomics
Microeconomics
Music Theory
Physics 1: Algebra-based
Physics 2: Algebra-based
Physics C: Mechanics
Physics C: Electricity and Magnetism
What a change from my high school days! I doubt AP courses were available in my high school all the way back then. Everything seems so much more competitive. Probably because there are so many more college graduates.
And yet the students entering college became less academically prepared than 40 years ago. What happened?!
I think it doesn't matter how you name the courses. What matters is the content and how well the teacher knows the subject. Dissecting frogs in 8th grade does not make students pre-med. The HS can offer "quantum mechanics" and teach it like how it's presented in a pop science magazine.
And yet the students entering college became less academically prepared than 40 years ago. What happened?!
I think it doesn't matter how you name the courses. What matters is the content and how well the teacher knows the subject. Dissecting frogs in 8th grade does not make students pre-med. The HS can offer "quantum mechanics" and teach it like how it's presented in a pop science magazine.
The number of people attending college has outpaced population growth. I think in the ‘80s, something like 1/4 of baby boomers had college degrees but now 40% of millennials have college degrees. Of the people attending school now, probably about 1/3 will finish school in four years with maybe 1/2 to 2/3 finishing in 6 years. I think the prior common wisdom was that the top half of students would probably be successful in college. Statistics seem to support this theory, but now we have so many more students actually entering college than were entering in the past.
I also think it’s a stretch to assume that of the top half of students, all are entering four-year institutions. Many may enter technical programs or two- to three-year programs that don’t result in a bachelor’s degree. Of the people who attempt four-year degrees, my guess is that a lot are really not good candidates for college for a variety of reasons. They may end up there because the other options are unavailable in their area for a reasonable price or without a long wait to get into the program. I have heard of many trade-oriented programs taking several years before you could even get in. As a result, you may have 2-3 years where you aren’t going to be in school… you might choose to try for a four-year degree instead even if that isn’t the right choice for you professionally.
I’m in Illinois now and from what I can see here, a lot of trades are looking to hire apprentices. When I have tradespeople come out, they often bring apprentices as I live in an older house and it is a good skill to be able to work in older homes. I’ve also seen signs at union HQs indicating they were looking to train people. I didn’t see that at all in Florida. I’m not one to suggest that everyone should go to a trade, but there are plenty of places that really have a need that simply don’t have the training options available.
Right, in EDS’ case, we are literally talking about children who are in the “top few” as in the likely top 3-5 students within the district. Unfortunately, most school districts do not have the resources or funds to cater to students who are that gifted. Schooling would need to take place through some sort of special agreement with a local university/community college.
I’m from Florida. Gifted education there is through special education and students are given an IEP like everyone else in special education. However, since it is state funded, many of the extras for Gifted students like summer school programs do involve paying some sort of fee. Nonetheless, there are programs through virtual school (Florida’s free public online school) at community college available for students as early as 6th grade. I think in other circumstances, kids may be able to go to the high school to take classes if they are that advanced.
I was in an IB program. It is strict for grades 11-12, but students could augment with other 11-12 grade coursework in earlier grades or take AP coursework. I have one friend who has a Gifted child. I am not sure if he is in IB or not but he was taking AP coursework starting in 9th grade. FWIW, my sister was in private school until 8th grade and I think the principal told my mom after she was done that having a program just for the two most gifted kids was not something they could do again practically. Most schools don’t have the in-house resources to cater to students that far ahead of the norm.
But on the other end of the exceptional educational spectrum, ALL districts are required by law to serve the most profoundly disabled children. In some cases, that means that the district itself has to pay for the services that the children require that they can't provide. I believe that ALL children should be able to be served by their public schools, no matter their exceptionality. I know two families with profoundly gifted children. Both had to leave our district, the top in the state, for a private school to get the services that they needed at their own expense.
But on the other end of the exceptional educational spectrum, ALL districts are required by law to serve the most profoundly disabled children. In some cases, that means that the district itself has to pay for the services that the children require that they can't provide. I believe that ALL children should be able to be served by their public schools, no matter their exceptionality. I know two families with profoundly gifted children. Both had to leave our district, the top in the state, for a private school to get the services that they needed at their own expense.
Where did the parents enroll these students? I was aware of a boy in my local school district who was taking the most advanced math classes in 6th grade. He was in AP Calculus BC in either 6th or 7th grade. We have a local college so he could've continued with finished their math curriculum by the time he graduated from high school. I don't think he would've had any better options in a public or private school in Western PA other to take math classes at a better college such as Carnegie Mellon.
I also understood that this student was only profoundly gifted in math. He was not top of his class in other subjects.
Where did the parents enroll these students? I was aware of a boy in my local school district who was taking the most advanced math classes in 6th grade. He was in AP Calculus BC in either 6th or 7th grade. We have a local college so he could've continued with finished their math curriculum by the time he graduated from high school. I don't think he would've had any better options in a public or private school in Western PA other to take math classes at a better college such as Carnegie Mellon.
I also understood that this student was only profoundly gifted in math. He was not top of his class in other subjects.
They all went to Jackson Prep. Two were brothers who appeared on the Oprah Winfrey show because the older had scored a perfect score on the ACT at 13. He went to Carnegie Mellon at 14 after taking all the AP classes at JP in his second senior year. He ended up at Microsoft. His younger brother was at Yale Medical School the last I checked. The other boy, a math prodigy who represented the US in an international math competition, went to Columbia to study theoretical physics before going on to the Imperial College of London. He now is back in the U. S. working in AI for GM.
My own daughter is gifted as well, but not like these three boys. We were able to handle her education by beginning her in a private school for kindergarten and first grade a year early before transferring her to the same public school district. She is now a chief resident about to begin a fellowship in pediatric hospital medicine. She is extremely happy to have been accelerated. Now as a young mother herself, she is seeing that her daughter will also need schooling that is outside the norm, but it is too early to tell to what degree.
There is a big difference between being gifted and being profoundly gifted, just as there is a difference between being cognitively disabled and profoundly cognitively disabled. The law guarantees an appropriate education in the least restrictive environment for the disabled. Unfortunately, the children on the other end of the spectrum have needs that are just as difficult to serve. It's a shame, because had the parents of these boys not had the means, they would have languished in school as I did, never having had a chance to see what they could become.
I'm not talking about the extremely gifted who are in unique circumstances. I'm talking about basically the top 15%-20% who may or may not be "gifted" in the technical sense but are certainly way above average and pretty much get ignored in class. It seems that most classes are designed slightly below average but are taught at the well below average level. The top 20% are getting a below average education.
Even when talking about "gifted" programs, in many parts of the country, it's merely a tack on. "Enrichment" just means extra work. Instead of doing the odd homework problems, they "get" to do both odd and even. Instead of 500 words, they "get" to do a thousand. When they reach high school, they are simply dumped into the standard set of classes without really haven gotten any "advanced" preparation but somehow expected to be "advanced" on their own.
Again, I'm not talking about the extreme tail of the distribution but a significant chunk of it that is getting ignored by an education system focused too much on equity for the bottom. They achieve that not by bringing the bottom up, but by bringing the top down.
Tnff, I understand what you're talking about, and I agree with you. I've observed the bright students being left to work on their own, while the teacher focuses on the bulk of the class. I also had a friend as an adult, who was a gifted student who was bored witless in school, and dropped out of HS because of it.
But the problem on this thread is, the OP isn't talking about the same cohort you are. So we have more than one issue to cover, basically. Which is fine; it's a worthy topic/couple of related topics. I think both your angle and the OP's angle are worth fleshing out in detail and discussing. These are important questions: how DO we deal with fast learners, and how DO/should we deal with gifted students. Should a public school system find a way to accommodate everyone? Maybe it would be doable, if the Gifted school were a magnet school that one had to qualify for, in order to gain entry. That's the only way I can see of it being realistic financially.
Tnff, I understand what you're talking about, and I agree with you. I've observed the bright students being left to work on their own, while the teacher focuses on the bulk of the class. I also had a friend as an adult, who was a gifted student who was bored witless in school, and dropped out of HS because of it.
But the problem on this thread is, the OP isn't talking about the same cohort you are. So we have more than one issue to cover, basically. Which is fine; it's a worthy topic/couple of related topics. I think both your angle and the OP's angle are worth fleshing out in detail and discussing. These are important questions: how DO we deal with fast learners, and how DO/should we deal with gifted students. Should a public school system find a way to accommodate everyone? Maybe it would be doable, if the Gifted school were a magnet school that one had to qualify for, in order to gain entry. That's the only way I can see of it being realistic financially.
I think many districts do have Gifted magnets. You have to be labeled as Gifted and then you can apply for entrance into the Gifted school or program. I think the last place where my office was in FL (a large district) had Gifted schools through 8th grade and then intense college prep programs in high school that basically had the Gifted schools as feeders. I am in Chicago now and work with some people who I think went through a similar system in CPS.
The last place I lived in FL was smaller, but already a highly competitive district. Most people I know say their kids, even while in regular classes, are in an academically rigorous program. The area is popular because the schools are excellent, so it attracts a lot of people who have involved parents. I think a few years ago, FL changed the districting where you can send your child to any public school if it has space after the district kids fill the slots. That also allows parents who are able to take their kids to schools that are more academically rigorous than the ones in their home districts. It is possible to cross districts within this program. There are some problems in some school districts where the local schools have so many problems that kids who are faster learners (or even interested in learning at all) have problems because teachers end up spending so much time on discipline. Unfortunately, if the parent doesn’t have a way to transport the child to the school, then this option is not helpful.
FWIW, I subbed a lot at one magnet middle school. It was not a Gifted magnet, but my understanding was that the vast majority of the magnet students were at the honors level. The neighborhood itself was lower income, but district children definitely had better opportunities with the magnet program in place. It probably had half regular sections and half honors sections. I think when these programs were in place in many schools in Florida, the achievement level of most went up. I know one district got rid of many programs and the achievement level went down. This is primarily due to the requirement of some level of parental involvement for your children to go to these schools. I know when I went to a magnet, there were required student and parent meetings. My mom became super involved when my sister participated.
Tnff, I understand what you're talking about, and I agree with you. I've observed the bright students being left to work on their own, while the teacher focuses on the bulk of the class. I also had a friend as an adult, who was a gifted student who was bored witless in school, and dropped out of HS because of it.
But the problem on this thread is, the OP isn't talking about the same cohort you are. So we have more than one issue to cover, basically. Which is fine; it's a worthy topic/couple of related topics. I think both your angle and the OP's angle are worth fleshing out in detail and discussing. These are important questions: how DO we deal with fast learners, and how DO/should we deal with gifted students. Should a public school system find a way to accommodate everyone? Maybe it would be doable, if the Gifted school were a magnet school that one had to qualify for, in order to gain entry. That's the only way I can see of it being realistic financially.
While the OP's kids would be on the extreme end of the gifted scale, consider the issue affects far more than those highly gifted kids:
Committee member Ian Shenk, who focused on grades 8-10, said: "Let me be totally clear, we are talking about taking Algebra 1, Geometry, Algebra 2 – those three courses that we've known and loved ... and removing them from our high school mathematics program, replacing them with essential concepts for grade eight, nine, and 10."
Shenk also clarified that under the framework, everyone in eighth grade would take "essential concepts 8."
That's clearly not referring to gifted kids' programs, but the math courses that part of any college bound program. Pushing Algebra 1 from 8th to 11th? There's no way to get through all the needed material for college in just 11th and 12th (Algebra 1, Algebra 2, Geometry, Trig, Calc). This is what concerns so many of us, lowering education quality for the majority just to help the bottom few feel good about themselves.
These are important questions: how DO we deal with fast learners, and how DO/should we deal with gifted students. Should a public school system find a way to accommodate everyone? Maybe it would be doable, if the Gifted school were a magnet school that one had to qualify for, in order to gain entry. That's the only way I can see of it being realistic financially.
NYC has great magnet schools with admission testing. NYC population is 13 percent are Asian, 26 percent are Hispanic, 26 percent are black. The magnet schools are mainly Asians with some White students. Unfortunately, there is a move to stop the admission tests to allow more Black/Latino students in. It's funny (not really) as many of Asians students are poor, but come from a culture of excellence. Somehow barring Asians is progress.
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Most high schools have an average of 800 students, 200 students in each class. There is no reason why the top 20% math students can not be in one math class and the 20% lowest achieving math students can not be in another class with a teacher and an aide (or two).
It's not adding a class. Everyone must attend a math class. It's only structuring the schedule so the brightest and slowest are each in a class suited to their needs, taught at different speeds.
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