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I remember something like that from high school in the 1980's, and it was probably this way in the 70's, too. It was more like having tracks for the students than tracking them: academic (for the kids intending to go to colllege), business (for those going to business school), and vo-tech (for those going into a trade). There were certain courses for each of these (such as business typing v. personal typing, or business-oriented mathematics courses v. pre-calc), with some overlap. Everyone took the same French classes, for example. I remember that there was a human anatomy course strictly for students who planned to go into nursing. I think that was part of the vo-tech track.
To some extent, that has now taken the form of AP classes for the "smart kids" or college-bound kids. We had AP French, but Spanish didn't have an AP section. The Spanish program seemed to be the easy track for the kids who knew they wouldn't be able to handle French, because the French teachers were more demanding. I took both, and the Spanish teacher definitely made the class easier and more fun. Foreign language was required, so the school figured it had to offer a choice that was easier.
As for human anatomy being filed under vo-tech, that's a little strange to ghettoize it that way. Having taken Anatomy and Physiology as part of a massage training program some years ago, I think it should be required in HS. Everyone should have knowledge of how the body works. It could count as a science credit, though it's not a lab science. But there's plenty of science in it: chemistry, among other things. The electrical qualities of the body. The cardio-vascular system is important to understand. I wonder if A & P is part of HS education in Europe. I think it's pretty important.
I observed a school in western WA that served kids on a nearby reservation, and all the Native kids got shunted into the vo-tech program. They were "advised" to take that "track", rather than opt for college-prep work. I noticed, that some of those kids were very intellectually curious and active in class, which made me suspicious of the whole thing. I wonder to what extent that happened in schools with a lot of Black students, like the schools in Berkeley, Oakland, NYC, LA, etc.
Last edited by Ruth4Truth; 08-17-2022 at 09:43 AM..
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth
...
I observed a school in western WA that served kids on a nearby reservation, and all the Native kids got shunted into the vo-tech program. They were "advised" to take that "track", rather than opt for college-prep work. I noticed, that some of those kids were very intellectually curious and active in class, which made me suspicious of the whole thing. I wonder to what extent that happened in schools with a lot of Black students, like the schools in Berkeley, Oakland, NYC, LA, etc.
These offerings MAY be more appropriate for some HS students, including minorities, but are in no way similar to the subject of thread...Germany, or any foriegn countries who MANDATE and track students from elementary age level into academic / vs skilled trades, or even medical or science based (not voluntarily). Those countries often have a strategic national economic and employment objective that requires 'x' talent to be prepared by 'x' date.
Don't over-think / assign or 'profile' minorities in the USA to ONLY be REQUIRED to follow a lower level academic program. It may happen, but there are so many vast resources / scholarships / full ride sponsorships for minorities (ONLY), that those motivated and capable have an open slate. Sure, some inner city schools are over-burdened with social problems that hinder academic offerings, there are safety nets / escape routes for the truly academic capable students to pursue. We can't fix society through schools. That is a much broader problem, and one many are commited to improve, but very little strategic planning through the state and federal funders. (They only need to survive 2-4 yrs to again 'promote' themselves into a new or retained job. Getting dirty (working on critical problems) is not on their agenda). Measureable deliverables are shunned by those surviving only on popularity.
These offerings MAY be more appropriate for some HS students, including minorities, but are in no way similar to the subject of thread...Germany, or any foriegn countries who MANDATE and track students from elementary age level into academic / vs skilled trades, or even medical or science based (not voluntarily). Those countries often have a strategic national economic and employment objective that requires 'x' talent to be prepared by 'x' date.
Don't over-think / assign or 'profile' minorities in the USA to ONLY be REQUIRED to follow a lower level academic program. It may happen, but there are so many vast resources / scholarships / full ride sponsorships for minorities (ONLY), that those motivated and capable have an open slate. Sure, some inner city schools are over-burdened with social problems that hinder academic offerings, there are safety nets / escape routes for the truly academic capable students to pursue. We can't fix society through schools. That is a much broader problem, and one many are commited to improve, but very little strategic planning through the state and federal funders. (They only need to survive 2-4 yrs to again 'promote' themselves into a new or retained job. Getting dirty (working on critical problems) is not on their agenda). Measureable deliverables are shunned by those surviving only on popularity.
I was making the point, that this is why Euro-style tracking wouldn't work in the US. Because the looser type of tracking that has existed here was mis-used. This is very much on topic. Maybe you missed the point.
Germany starts tracking in elementary. In America we'd have a revolution against that. American parents would NOT give that kind of power over their kids to elementary teachers and principals.
For all the criticism of the American education system, it is actually one of the most progressive and egalitarian systems on earth. America is more conservative that Europe on health care but NOT education.
Technically the Germans have a point, since college success can be pretty accurately predicted by about ages 12-13. Elite colleges will even start recruiting in middle school. However, again, Americans would never tolerate some education bureaucrat telling their 12 year old, "you will never go to college." No way no how.
I think the German education system allots more freedom and independence to kids because the ball will be in the child’s court to steer what they are interested in. Often times parents speak for their kids which goes along the lines of kids not being old enough to speak for themselves. At a young age, a child is easy to persuade and a child can be convinced of what they should or shouldn’t pursue by any of parents or guardians they look up to, teachers, counselors, friends, peers, etc .
But …. In a classroom when a child really shows more eager interest in one subject over another, and teachers jobs are to observe student academic skills without disruptions as they are trained in education, those independent interests of the kids will not be clouded by what someone is told they must do, and is observed in classroom settings that certain subject matters run more naturally for certain kids compared to others. If a child COULD express what they are too young to verbalize, what they truly gravitate to enjoying and doing more of would be the clearest expression of what THEY are interested in, not undue influence of parental preferences, and this is a nice freedom from coercion that German schools allot kids, and without ANY indoctrination by parents NOR by schools, but simply surveying the level of interest and results of each student when introduced to a subject that isn’t labeled as a should or shouldn’t by anyone above them but themselves.
Germany starts tracking in elementary. In America we'd have a revolution against that. American parents would NOT give that kind of power over their kids to elementary teachers and principals.
For all the criticism of the American education system, it is actually one of the most progressive and egalitarian systems on earth. America is more conservative that Europe on health care but NOT education.
Technically the Germans have a point, since college success can be pretty accurately predicted by about ages 12-13. Elite colleges will even start recruiting in middle school. However, again, Americans would never tolerate some education bureaucrat telling their 12 year old, "you will never go to college." No way no how.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCityDreamer
Affirmative action has been implemented in the United States at least since the 1970s.
This ensured that blacks and Hispanics were admitted to colleges with lower test scores than whites and Asians who were admitted to those colleges.
Affirmative action is necessary for allowing access to educational opportunities with socioeconomic hurdles at home impeding on opportunity to vest as much time to studies as their potential through little fault of their own, but I think we need to hybrid that with a German system where kids are tracked to the right areas of motivation and interest and not just accepted into just any high place of learning but the one that is closest to their powerhouse. At my magnet performing arts school there was affirmative action to increase diversity , into a school mixed with fine art areas AND higher advanced placement academic classes in math science engineering etc
In that school. Some of the minority kids were and some weren’t super successful in academic subjects, but some who weren’t were successful in individualized art areas to an extreme, including one of our saxophone musicians who was a star in one of the jazz bands , and one group that formed a salsa band called Cafe Con Leche and then through that band earned a gig with the husband of Gloria Estefan in Miami making headlines. So yes opportunity involves both mapping individuals and affording some level of affirmative action entry
Affirmative action has been implemented in the United States at least since the 1970s.
This ensured that blacks and Hispanics were admitted to colleges with lower test scores than whites and Asians who were admitted to those colleges.
But no one in the schools was talking to those kids about college. They weren't planting that bug in their ear, and supporting them in taking college prep courses. They were conveying the idea that they weren't college material, and should take up a trade.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth
But no one in the schools was talking to those kids about college. They weren't planting that bug in their ear, and supporting them in taking college prep courses. They were conveying the idea that they weren't college material, and should take up a trade.
Please be careful on projecting your 'thoughts'.
Many teachers might be gravely offended, as they have lobbied and struggled for decades to get their capable students into the approriate further education and careers.
Many, MANY great leaders, scientists, profeesionals of all types, fro all colors and backgrounds HAVE made it, in spite of, or even with the aid of their teachers and educators.
There are so many great leaders of various color / race / and sex.
USA Military (and EDU) included! (Thank goodness).
The US had tracking in public schools. Not sure if it still does, or maybe in some states still. But it wasn't like the Euro model, exactly. There was also a different kind of tracking, where kids could choose an easier trig course over a more difficult one, for example. Within a college prep program, there was choice, for kids who weren't strong in math, for example. They could opt for a lower-pressure course. It had no bearing on their college admissability or future career options, or anything.
New York like nearly everywhere else in USA had some sort of educational tracking well into and past 1980's. This was also time when you could still find "vocational" high schools. There was basically two different tracks; "college bound" and "vocational".
As usual liberal, socialist, progressive democrats (and their supporters) got their panties in a bunch. They claimed such tracking harmed minorities and or students from less well off backgrounds confining them to careers or whatever that didn't include post secondary education.
This was also the time when "college for everyone" began to take hold.
Vocational schools/programs were largely shut down, and every student was in theory given college prep track. It has been a freaking disaster ever since.
German method makes sense by acknowledging not every kid is academically gifted to avail themselves of a four year post secondary education. What Germany does right is that it works in manufacturing/industry so that vocational students graduate high school with skills and training economy needs. That is one huge reason why Germany is manufacturing powerhouse of Europe.
Part of the above also comes down to Prussian Values ( Germany started two world wars in last century and bounced back each time afterwards), but overall their education system works.
Meanwhile in USA Biden is capping off a string of bad federal education policies and decisions by forgiving $20k worth of student loans. Debt incurred in many cases by young adults who had no GD business going to college in first place.
People keep going on about "brining manufacturing back" to USA, meanwhile manufacturers of all sorts say they cannot find qualified skilled workers, especially young people. It isn't wages, since many jobs pay darn good money. But that kids have been brainwashed into believing it's college or their nobodies.
Manufacturing plants today are nothing like places were before WWII or few decades afterwards. Totally different skill sets are needed which is why schools partnering with manufacturers makes sense. You cannot expect private industry to take on total not so small cost of training/educating a new hire, only to see them either fail or leave.
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