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You start with phonics, as a first step, a fundamental. Then, in 2nd or 3rd grade, you branch out to learn the "exceptions" to the basic phonics principle, of which there are many, obviously. But you build gradually. Kids can absorb all the wonkiness in English step by step over time. At least with phonic as a starting place, they know there's some measure of method to the madness.
For beginners, it's important to have a grounding that introduces some predictability. It provides confidence. Then later as they build vocabulary that doesn't fit the mold, it's not as overwhelming as it would be, otherwise.
Phonics should be the first step.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gtoman67z
My daughter recently alerted me about the "Sold a Story" podcast detailing the evolution of reading education over the last four decades. As the mother of a pre-K and first grader, she obviously has a more vested interest in the topic, yet I found the series (link below) quite informative.
My daughter is an English teacher. Last year, she had seventh graders. My daughter asked them to sound out words they didn't recognize. Well, they never had phonics and couldn't sound out words. She found the "Sold a Story" podcast and was outraged.
So thirty years ago, my daughter had whole word language in first grade. When I read with her, she couldn't sound out words. I freaked out. I brought Hook-on-Phonics and within a couple of months she was reading chapter books. By the end of first grade, she was in the 99% of reading skills on the Iowa test. It wasn't that she was smart than her classmates, it was that she had Hook-on-Phonics.
It's like the education system is purposely harming children.
rabbit33 - I liked your first post in this discussion. All you posts here are good.
My daughter is an English teacher. Last year, she had seventh graders. My daughter asked them to sound out words they didn't recognize. Well, they never had phonics and couldn't sound out words. She found the "Sold a Story" podcast and was outraged.
So thirty years ago, my daughter had whole word language in first grade. When I read with her, she couldn't sound out words. I freaked out. I brought Hook-on-Phonics and within a couple of months she was reading chapter books. By the end of first grade, she was in the 99% of reading skills on the Iowa test. It wasn't that she was smart than her classmates, it was that she had Hook-on-Phonics.
It's like the education system is purposely harming children.
rabbit33 - I liked your first post in this discussion. All you posts here are good.
Right. I doubt any schools that start out with phonics graduate kids who can't read, except for those who may be dyslexic or have other cognitive challenges. (There was one such student in my class. By 4th grade, he was still struggling to read, but he got help, and the teacher had some of us proficient readers work with him.) Meanwhile, non-phonics schools routinely graduate kids from gradeschool who can't read, and these poor people continue on through highschool somehow, I don't know how, without being able to read. Some of them probably drop out.
My brother, who himself couldn't read until my parents put him in a phonics school for his 6th grade, which cured the problem, said that as an attorney, he dealt with a number of criminal cases in which the perpetrators never learned to read. With few options in life due to that deficiency, they stooped to petty crime.
The real crime is that the schools aren't teaching kids to read. They're handicapping them for adult life. That shouldn't be allowed.
IDK, I used to read aloud to my kids, everything from Peter Pan to Treasure Island -- in the original English, mind you, and I had to read Peter Pan ahead to avoid getting tongue-tied because the syntax and vocabulary were so unusual -- and I don't even know which reading "method" they taught in school.
You start with phonics, as a first step, a fundamental. Then, in 2nd or 3rd grade, you branch out to learn the "exceptions" to the basic phonics principle, of which there are many, obviously. But you build gradually. Kids can absorb all the wonkiness in English step by step over time. At least with phonics as a starting place, they know there's some measure of method to the madness.
For beginners, it's important to have a grounding that introduces some predictability. It provides confidence. Then later as they build vocabulary that doesn't fit the mold, it's not as overwhelming as it would be, otherwise.
I'm not bashing phonics, but I know it isn't a magic cure either.
I was substituting today and had some time, so I challenged myself to see how many ways I could spell the long vowel sounds. For example, the long A, chart-style...
Throw out aigh, ait since there seem to be very few that use them and you still have ten ways to spell that sound. I looked up how many other ways a can be pronounced. Private, hat, hark, haul, apply, yacht: six other ways. I was able to come up with similar lists for long e, long i, long o, and long u.
As someone pointed out upthread, writing is harder than reading and that shows part of the reason. Multiple combinations of letters making the sounds means you have to choose. Worse, though, they may make other sounds as well. Compare the sound of ae in sundae vs algae or the sound of ai in aim vs bonsai. Prey looks like it should rhyme with key but it doesn't, and slow doesn't rhyme with cow either.
Sure, teach them phonetics. Some will return with that joke tee shirt "Hukd on foniks sher werkt fur me." But it will work for some, I'm sure. But I don't think the method is the entire issue.
What I see at the high school level is a vicious cycle. I suspect that they don't read because they can't and they can't read because they don't.
When I was a 9th grader, age 13 or so, we were expected to read Romeo and Juliet, Great Expectations, and some short stories, poetry, etc. We also wrote papers, diagrammed sentences, worked on punctuation, and so on. We learned a lot.
What I've been seeing in schools where I taught and subbed is that teachers don't assign reading (or for that matter, homework). Especially in poorer areas or areas with lots of immigrants who are learning English, many feel that giving homework is setting the students up for failure. They think the kid will get stuck, and the parents won't be able to help (the parents may not even physically be there). Better not to make the kid feel like a failure... Of course advanced classes expect more of the students but the average kid doesn't take much home.
One day I was talking to an English teacher and I asked her what she had the kids doing that day. She said they were watching the video "Bend it Like Beckham." She said the teachers couldn't expect them to read a whole novel so they would analyze the film for exposition, climax, denouement, etc. That's a far cry from what my teacher expected of me.
Reading is a skill and skills take practice. The more you do it, the better you get. If you don't do it, you won't get better. Avoiding the problem doesn't fix anything. Reading is difficult, takes work...I even subbed for a teacher who had remedial-ish kids. They actually can click to have the thing read to them---I guess there's an audio file associated with it and they can follow along. But some still won't do it. It's as natural as anything when a kid gives up at the first hint of difficulty, but I don't know why parents accept that. For starters I'd be afraid my kid wouldn't be employable and he'd live at home for the rest of my life.
I'm not bashing phonics, but I know it isn't a magic cure either.
I was substituting today and had some time, so I challenged myself to see how many ways I could spell the long vowel sounds. For example, the long A, chart-style...
Throw out aigh, ait since there seem to be very few that use them and you still have ten ways to spell that sound. I looked up how many other ways a can be pronounced. Private, hat, hark, haul, apply, yacht: six other ways. I was able to come up with similar lists for long e, long i, long o, and long u.
As someone pointed out upthread, writing is harder than reading and that shows part of the reason. Multiple combinations of letters making the sounds means you have to choose. Worse, though, they may make other sounds as well. Compare the sound of ae in sundae vs algae or the sound of ai in aim vs bonsai. Prey looks like it should rhyme with key but it doesn't, and slow doesn't rhyme with cow either.
Sure, teach them phonetics. Some will return with that joke tee shirt "Hukd on foniks sher werkt fur me."
No, they won't. Because they'll have mastered phonics by the time they're through 2nd grade, and will be moving on to learning more complex vocabulary and spelling as they progress through grade school. They'll get tested on spelling regularly, so they'll learn how to memorize the types of examples you're coming up with. By the time they're old enough to be aware of the existence of t-shirts or jokes like the one you posted, they'll be too advanced to take much of an interest. Or they may be making lists like the ones you keep making, and will go on to study linguistics at their local university while in highschool.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ILTXwhatnext;
But it will work for some, I'm sure. But I don't think the method is the entire issue.
What I see at the high school level is a vicious cycle. I suspect that they don't read because they can't and they can't read because they don't.
When I was a 9th grader, age 13 or so, we were expected to read Romeo and Juliet, Great Expectations, and some short stories, poetry, etc. We also wrote papers, diagrammed sentences, worked on punctuation, and so on. We learned a lot.
What I've been seeing in schools where I taught and subbed is that teachers don't assign reading (or for that matter, homework). Especially in poorer areas or areas with lots of immigrants who are learning English, many feel that giving homework is setting the students up for failure. They think the kid will get stuck, and the parents won't be able to help (the parents may not even physically be there). Better not to make the kid feel like a failure... Of course advanced classes expect more of the students but the average kid doesn't take much home.
One day I was talking to an English teacher and I asked her what she had the kids doing that day. She said they were watching the video "Bend it Like Beckham." She said the teachers couldn't expect them to read a whole novel so they would analyze the film for exposition, climax, denouement, etc. That's a far cry from what my teacher expected of me.
Reading is a skill and skills take practice. The more you do it, the better you get. If you don't do it, you won't get better. Avoiding the problem doesn't fix anything. Reading is difficult, takes work...I even subbed for a teacher who had remedial-ish kids. They actually can click to have the thing read to them---I guess there's an audio file associated with it and they can follow along. But some still won't do it. It's as natural as anything when a kid gives up at the first hint of difficulty, but I don't know why parents accept that. For starters I'd be afraid my kid wouldn't be employable and he'd live at home for the rest of my life.
I spoke to a friend recently, who teaches English as a Second Language in highschool mostly to Hispanics. He starts them off with phonics, so they won't be too lost, then progresses more or less as I outlined. He also teaches grammar from the start, and continues as their English competency increases. Eventually they're able to join the other kids and work at their level, but the English teachers for the mainstream kids don't teach advanced grammar. (No public highschools in WA do.) So my friend teaches his former Hispanic students on the side, if they want to prepare for college.
It sounds like the ESL teachers at the school where you were subbing aren't interested in teaching tedious topics like spelling, reading, etc.
I taught the alphabet and some letter sounds to my first graders from the start. Once I got to know each kid better I'd tailor the lessons either more to phonics or more to just recognizing words and word parts and always mixing in some other ways like remembering the shape or configuration of a word or using context clues. The class would always dictate stories for me to write on the board and then we'd read it back together--that was the first thing we did in the morning. Readingit back out loud as a class gave more help and confidence to the slower readers.
I always wrote todays date and the weather on the board and we'd all read it out loud together. Reading and writing go together. Pretty soon I had them copy the date and weather onto paper. Reinforcing. We were also learning how to form the letters correctly.
Next came writing the daily story on paper and being able to read it back. They already knew what it said so reading it was part guessing and part knowing. More reinforcement. Lots of reading out loud as a class so the slower kids didn't get stressed out or feel left out.
When they got better, they'd write a daily story, usually something about themselves and what they did, and they'd illustrate it and then read it out loud. If they needed to know how to spell a word, they could ask me, or when some kids got to be really good spellers, they were allowed to go and ask one of those kids. I didn't make a big issue out of spelling in grade one but I preferred that they spell correctly rather than getting used to spelling it wrong.
By the end of grade one they could all write good essays with cute illustrations. They could all read pretty well for first graders. It is not either-or. You use all sorts of methods to teach and there are quite a few kids who would be confused by phonics and they don't need it. They do not learn that way. The ones who learned better by phonics learned phonics. But it is NOT Either-Or. It is All.
BTW, the look-say method does NOT limit a kid to only the words he/she is taught. The kid more or less automatically applies what he/she has learned to decipher other words. For instance, the kid learns "cat." If they see "Category" or "catalogue" they can figure it out by context clues or a bit of phonics or whatever works for them. It's like having a tool box of skills.
I would never bog a kid down with boring phonics if he/she didn't need it. How discouraging and dull. A smattering of letter sounds does help though, although a lot of kids just generalize and figure it out on their own. A tool box of reading skills is better than any single method--for most kids.
No, they won't. Because they'll have mastered phonics by the time they're through 2nd grade, and will be moving on to learning more complex vocabulary and spelling as they progress through grade school. They'll get tested on spelling regularly, so they'll learn how to memorize the types of examples you're coming up with. By the time they're old enough to be aware of the existence of t-shirts or jokes like the one you posted, they'll be too advanced to take much of an interest. Or they may be making lists like the ones you keep making, and will go on to study linguistics at their local university while in highschool.
Some criticisms I've read:
Are they reading real books or things that are stilted? Are they sounding things out but not really comprehending? Does the application of all these rules make them dislike reading? Are there too many words that don't fit the patterns, making learning lots of exceptions time-consuming and frustrating? Is there a better method for some students?
Your contention is that one of none of those is ever a valid concern for any student? Not a single one of them would ever remember being forced to do phonics, hating it, and later buy a tee shirt that reflected that sentiment?
I'm one of those who didn't learn by phonics, by the way. My brothers and sisters read to me enough that I just picked it up before I even started kindergarten. My sister-in-law, who was my brother's girlfriend at the time, said she came over to our house and I told her I could read the newspaper. She said, "Sure you can, little guy." She picked it up, pointed to an article. "Read me this." And I did. There must be others like me.
I wonder about students being tested regularly on spelling. From what I've seen at the high school level teachers abandoned a lot of the mechanics. Maybe they still teach it but when grading essays they emphasize generating ideas and coherent thoughts. They forgive a lot of the nuts and bolts errors, including spelling.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth
<snip>
It sounds like the ESL teachers at the school where you were subbing aren't interested in teaching tedious topics like spelling, reading, etc.
Oh, I'm not talking about ESL: I'm talking about English. This is teaching white kids whose first language is English (with others mixed in there of course), not kids who are beginners in the language. Hell, my peers and I read Romeo and Juliet, which isn't even understood by a lot of modern speakers today. Good luck with asking students to read that now. This is nothing new, right? Standards have been slipping since forever ago.
You seem to think teachers have unlimited autonomy in the classroom. There's a state curriculum they're supposed to follow, for instance. Showing that film? The district approved it...they too are waving a white flag, it seems. And of course, teachers better cover things that they know will be on the state test because if we get an unsatisfactory rating, someone has some explaining to do. If spelling isn't there, move on. It doesn't matter whether the teachers are interested in a topic or if it's tedious because the district pays them to do what they must.
And don't ever discount culture. Example 1: while teaching in Texas, the powers that be admonished us to be in the hallway during passing period. Subbing here in Arkansas, most teachers are inside their rooms. Result? There have been a couple fights in my short time here. Some faculty say the kids forgot how to "use words" during COVID and just start swinging instead. In Texas the prevailing wisdom to teachers: call administration, you aren't qualified to break it up. I know a guy who ended up in court for doing just that---a kid was pummeling an assistant principal, my friend pulled him off, and suddenly it's "assault" on the kid. Here in Arkansas, they say for God's sake get in there and pull them apart! One female teacher got punched doing that. Example 2: In Texas I would often write short quizzes, copy them, and we'd take the quiz. Then I'd collect and hand everybody someone else's paper to grade. Students liked getting instant feedback, it was a chance to stretch their legs when passing them back, and I just had to put the scores in the gradebook. In Arkansas, they can't do that. The powers here feel it tells other students their grade. True, one grade out of 25. Example 3: In Texas, a laser pointer is a weapon because it could do damage if you shine it in someone's eyes and the kid is suspended at a minimum. In Arkansas it's a toy, even if the kid shines it in someone's eyes.
Everybody picks their battles. Any solutions are going to depend on the people in your locale. You want teachers to go in there and stop with the social promotions, demand that kids do their work, go old school on them, improve the learning for those who want to learn, etc.? What percentage can the teacher fail before you think he isn't doing his job? If the community and the state had our back, I think teachers could take them to task and turn it around. You'd have a lot of kids on five and six year plans. The schools are going to get more crowded because of that. But admin gets angry parents who want blood and that won't fly.
One of the English teachers at the school where I was subbing quit at Christmas break. She felt the admin was unduly pressuring them in matters related to grading. They hated to lose her but understood why she left. I don't know if she had another job to go to or not. If money were no object? Look at the numbers leaving the profession as we speak.
Are they reading real books or things that are stilted? Are they sounding things out but not really comprehending? Does the application of all these rules make them dislike reading? Are there too many words that don't fit the patterns, making learning lots of exceptions time-consuming and frustrating? Is there a better method for some students?
Your contention is that one of none of those is ever a valid concern for any student? Not a single one of them would ever remember being forced to do phonics, hating it, and later buy a tee shirt that reflected that sentiment?
I'm one of those who didn't learn by phonics, by the way. My brothers and sisters read to me enough that I just picked it up before I even started kindergarten. My sister-in-law, who was my brother's girlfriend at the time, said she came over to our house and I told her I could read the newspaper. She said, "Sure you can, little guy." She picked it up, pointed to an article. "Read me this." And I did. There must be others like me.
I wonder about students being tested regularly on spelling. From what I've seen at the high school level teachers abandoned a lot of the mechanics. Maybe they still teach it but when grading essays they emphasize generating ideas and coherent thoughts. They forgive a lot of the nuts and bolts errors, including spelling.
Oh, I'm not talking about ESL: I'm talking about English. This is teaching white kids whose first language is English (with others mixed in there of course), not kids who are beginners in the language. Hell, my peers and I read Romeo and Juliet, which isn't even understood by a lot of modern speakers today. Good luck with asking students to read that now. This is nothing new, right? Standards have been slipping since forever ago.
Okay!
Are they reading real books or things that are stilted?
Phonics is introduced in first grade with the simplest sentences - like Dr. Seuss' Hop on Pop or Fox on Socks books.
"I'm one of those who didn't learn by phonics, by the way"
You might not have been aware of phonics, but you picked it up. However, many student need to be taught phonics like students with dyslexia, language learning disabilities and students from lower economic and minority groups. Teachers need to teach to the widest segment of students. Unless you are okay with teaching only to the segment of the population that inherited the skill to bypass phonics.
They forgive a lot of the nuts and bolts errors, including spelling.
Decent high school English classes have vocabulary words. It's important preparation for the SAT's. My daughter gives her high school students a weekly vocabulary/spelling test.
Hell, my peers and I read Romeo and Juliet, which isn't even understood by a lot of modern speakers today. Good luck with asking students to read that now
My kids attended two different middle schools. Both middle schools introduced Shakespeare with Romeo and Juliet. My daughter teaches Macbeth in 10th grade. It usually around Halloween and the kids got really into the witches. She said it's a lot of fun.
One additional note - it's very hard to teach/learn a foreign language without phonics. Even with a different alphabet (Russian/Arabic) and different letter sounds, English phonics teaches a skill set that helps with other languages.
In other countries, people are multilingual. Many countries require students to be multilingual - Greenland has their native language and Danish. In Finland, Finnish and Swedish are both considered national languages. Hong Kong, English and Cantonese are official languages. I think it's a failing of the US schools that our students aren't bilingual.
As RUTH has repeatedly said, phonics isn't the only way to learn to read - it's one of several methods that should be taught.
Last edited by YorktownGal; 03-04-2023 at 09:35 AM..
I taught the alphabet and some letter sounds to my first graders from the start. Once I got to know each kid better I'd tailor the lessons either more to phonics or more to just recognizing words and word parts and always mixing in some other ways like remembering the shape or configuration of a word or using context clues. The class would always dictate stories for me to write on the board and then we'd read it back together--that was the first thing we did in the morning. Readingit back out loud as a class gave more help and confidence to the slower readers.
I always wrote todays date and the weather on the board and we'd all read it out loud together. Reading and writing go together. Pretty soon I had them copy the date and weather onto paper. Reinforcing. We were also learning how to form the letters correctly.
Next came writing the daily story on paper and being able to read it back. They already knew what it said so reading it was part guessing and part knowing. More reinforcement. Lots of reading out loud as a class so the slower kids didn't get stressed out or feel left out.
When they got better, they'd write a daily story, usually something about themselves and what they did, and they'd illustrate it and then read it out loud. If they needed to know how to spell a word, they could ask me, or when some kids got to be really good spellers, they were allowed to go and ask one of those kids. I didn't make a big issue out of spelling in grade one but I preferred that they spell correctly rather than getting used to spelling it wrong.
By the end of grade one they could all write good essays with cute illustrations. They could all read pretty well for first graders. It is not either-or. You use all sorts of methods to teach and there are quite a few kids who would be confused by phonics and they don't need it. They do not learn that way. The ones who learned better by phonics learned phonics. But it is NOT Either-Or. It is All.
This is fascinating. Thanks for sharing!
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