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Are they reading real books or things that are stilted? Are they sounding things out but not really comprehending? Does the application of all these rules make them dislike reading? Are there too many words that don't fit the patterns, making learning lots of exceptions time-consuming and frustrating? Is there a better method for some students?
Your contention is that one of none of those is ever a valid concern for any student? Not a single one of them would ever remember being forced to do phonics, hating it, and later buy a tee shirt that reflected that sentiment?
There are no "all these rules". Phonics is one basic principle. There are no "rules", unless you mean things like " 'I' after 'E' except following 'C', and that sort of thing. Learning phonics helps build proficiency at the earliest stage, so they enjoy reading. Kids who are completely lost by "see and say" end up avoiding reading because they can't do it.
The ESL example was just an example of how phonics and grammar help even non-native speakers of English.
Again, phonics is over and done with at the end of 2nd grade, if not earlier, by which time they've moved on to other methods to assist in learning words of greater complexity than "cat", "dog", "see", "run", etc. You don't seem to be grasping what I post repeatedly in response to your objections.
Why, were you scarred for life by being taught phonics in first grade, is that what you're saying? And you weren't the only one?
Okay!
As RUTH has repeatedly said, phonics isn't the only way to learn to read - it's one of several methods that should be taught.
I said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by ILTXwhatnext
Sure, teach them phonetics. Some will return with that joke tee shirt "Hukd on foniks sher werkt fur me." But it will work for some, I'm sure. But I don't think the method is the entire issue.
Ruth replied:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth
No, they won't. Because they'll have mastered phonics by the time they're through 2nd grade, and will be moving on to learning more complex vocabulary and spelling as they progress through grade school.
Ruth made it sound foolproof, 100% success rate. Or am I reading that wrong? I had pointed out some of the criticisms out there and said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by ILTXwhatnext
Your contention is that one of none of those is ever a valid concern for any student? Not a single one of them would ever remember being forced to do phonics, hating it, and later buy a tee shirt that reflected that sentiment?
Your contention is that one of none of those is ever a valid concern for any student? Not a single one of them would ever remember being forced to do phonics, hating it, and later buy a tee shirt that reflected that sentiment?
Kids "hate" being walked through c + -at = cat, b + -at = bat? You were scarred for life by this at age 6? Enough to want a t-shirt protesting the method? Did you know there was such a thing as t-shirts with slogans when you were 6?
Kids "hate" being walked through c + -at = cat, b + -at = bat? You were scarred for life by this at age 6? Enough to want a t-shirt protesting the method? Did you know there was such a thing as t-shirts with slogans when you were 6?
Who said I hated it or was scarred for life? Maybe if I were forced to do it for years, subjected to tests over it, etc. I would. My teachers realized I didn't need it and left me alone.
Interesting title: How Visual-Spatial Children Learn To Read (Hint: It’s Not Phonics!)
Asking a visual-spatial learner who can already read many words as whole words to sit down and deal with graphemes and phonemes and then laboriously sound them out is simply torture. Repetition is also harmful for visual-spatial learners so you can imagine what that means with phonics drills. They are a terrible fit for this kind of learner!
Who said I hated it or was scarred for life? Maybe if I were forced to do it for years, subjected to tests over it, etc. I would. My teachers realized I didn't need it and left me alone.
That's not how teaching phonics works. There's no testings, and you don't "do it for years", as I've already explained twice. You haven't been reading and comprehending my posts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ILTXwhatnext;
Interesting title: How Visual-Spatial Children Learn To Read (Hint: It’s Not Phonics!)
Asking a visual-spatial learner who can already read many words as whole words to sit down and deal with graphemes and phonemes and then laboriously sound them out is simply torture. Repetition is also harmful for visual-spatial learners so you can imagine what that means with phonics drills. They are a terrible fit for this kind of learner!
OK. So...where would a visual-spatial learner learn to read many words as whole words before kindergarten or first grade, whenever schools start teaching phonics thee days (those that offer it at all)? If some kids do arrive at school already being able to recognize some words, they would just use their skills in reading the texts they're given, and would be less attentive to the phonics lessons. If they were already learning to read visual-spatially at home, they'd keep doing that.
What percentage of the first-grade population are visual-spatial learners when it comes to language? Are there any stats?
Last edited by Ruth4Truth; 03-04-2023 at 02:05 PM..
That's not how teaching phonics works. There's no testings, and you don't "do it for years", as I've already explained twice. You haven't been reading and comprehending my posts.
OK. So...where would a visual-spatial learner learn to read many words as whole words before kindergarten or first grade, whenever schools start teaching phonics thee days (those that offer it at all)? If some kids do arrive at school already being able to recognize some words, they would just use their skills in reading the texts they're given, and would be less attentive to the phonics lessons. If they were already learning to read visual-spatially at home, they'd keep doing that.
What percentage of the first-grade population are visual-spatial learners when it comes to language? Are there any stats?
This is just a simple question, don't make it into more than it is...what's your background in education?
What percentage of the first-grade population are visual-spatial learners when it comes to language? Are there any stats?
Great question, Ruth!
First, what is visual-spatial learner
Quote:
Some visual-spatial learners are excellent at auditory sequential processing as well. They have full access to both systems, so that if they don’t get an immediate “aha” when they are looking at a problem, they can resort to sequential, trial-and-error methods of problem solving. These students are usually highly gifted with well integrated abilities. However, the majority of visual-spatial learners we have found in our work are deficient in auditory sequential skills. This leads to a complex set of problems for the student. A definite mismatch exists between the student’s learning style and the instructional methods employed by the student’s teachers.
Physiological and Personality Factors.
Visual-spatial learners who experience learning problems have heightened sensory awareness to stimuli, such as extreme sensitivity to smells, acute hearing and intense reactions to loud noises. They are constantly bombarded by stimuli; they get so much information that they have trouble filtering it out. They tend to have excellent hearing, but poor listening skills. Their ability to retain and comprehend information auditorily is weak and they have difficulty with sequential tasks.
These children are highly perfectionistic, which means that they cannot handle failure. They usually refuse to attempt trial-and-error learning because they can’t cope with the failure inherent in this technique. They have an all-or-none learning style (the aha phenomenon). They either immediately see the correct solution to a problem or they don’t get it at all, in which case they may watch quietly (while pretending not to watch) or avoid the situation completely because it is too ego threatening.
What I found to be odd, is everyone agrees phonics is more helpful for dyslexia. However, dyslexia is linked to visual spatial learners.
Quote:
For years people have wondered if individuals with dyslexia, who have weaknesses in left-brain-based language processes, might have higher than average right-brain visual-spatial abilities because of the different way their brains are wired. It seems logical that "that the same brain organization that leads to language disabilities for dyslexics might also lead to certain high level abilities." (Norman Geschwind).
The scientific evidence has built to suggest that many dyslexics do, in fact, have stronger visual-spatial abilities than their non-dyslexic peers. Dyslexics evidence an enhanced ability to process visual-spatial information globally (holistically) rather than locally (part by part). This may be why individuals with dyslexia are over represented in fields such as architecture, art, engineering, and the sciences. In discussions with successful dyslexics in these fields the capacity to “see” things differently comes up with remarkable frequency.
So I don't understand howdyslexic visual learners hate phonics. It's weird or more likely untrue.
Anywho, less that 30% of kids are only visual learners. 65% of children use both visual and phonics in reading. I have no idea what the remaining 5% do. I hardly think any of these numbers are meaningful.
Some studies claim that 80% of teaching in the classroom is visual. However, my daughter said the newest research found that children learn more during classroom lectures - auditory learning.
That's not how teaching phonics works. There's no testings, and you don't "do it for years", as I've already explained twice. You haven't been reading and comprehending my posts.
OK. So...where would a visual-spatial learner learn to read many words as whole words before kindergarten or first grade, whenever schools start teaching phonics thee days (those that offer it at all)? If some kids do arrive at school already being able to recognize some words, they would just use their skills in reading the texts they're given, and would be less attentive to the phonics lessons. If they were already learning to read visual-spatially at home, they'd keep doing that.
What percentage of the first-grade population are visual-spatial learners when it comes to language? Are there any stats?
I'll ask you again:
Quote:
Originally Posted by ILTXwhatnext
Your contention is that one of none of those is ever a valid concern for any student? Not a single one of them would ever remember being forced to do phonics, hating it, and later buy a tee shirt that reflected that sentiment?
You seem unwilling to admit that it doesn't work for everyone.
A BBC article about the question in the UK says:
The interests of able readers are being threatened by an insistence primary school pupils are taught to read using phonics, an academic has said.
The Department for Education wants English schools to use the reading system, which requires children to blend common sounds into words.
But Durham University researcher Andrew Davis says those already starting to read are likely to be put off.
and
He says: "To subject either the fully fledged readers, or those who are well on their way, to a rigid diet of intensive phonics is an affront to their emerging identities as persons.
"To require this of students who have already gained some maturity in the rich and nourishing human activity of reading is almost a form of abuse."
He agrees that phonics can be very useful for teaching reading, but argues it should not be rigidly imposed on all.
So I don't understand howdyslexic visual learners hate phonics. It's weird or more likely untrue.
Anywho, less that 30% of kids are only visual learners. 65% of children use both visual and phonics in reading. I have no idea what the remaining 5% do. I hardly think any of these numbers are meaningful.
Some studies claim that 80% of teaching in the classroom is visual. However, my daughter said the newest research found that children learn more during classroom lectures - auditory learning.
Fascinating, I saw the same article and found this part interesting: They are excellent at mathematical analysis but may make endless computational errors because it is difficult for them to attend to details. Their reading comprehension is usually much better than their ability to decode words.
Which to me begs the question of whether they really understood what they learned?
But just to toss a monkey wrench into the discussion for the fun of it:
In 2009, Psychological Science in the Public Interest commissioned cognitive psychologists Harold Pashler, Mark McDaniel, Doug Rohrer, and Robert Bjork to evaluate the research on learning styles to determine whether there is credible evidence to support using learning styles in instruction. They came to a startling but clear conclusion: “Although the literature on learning styles is enormous,” they “found virtually no evidence” supporting the idea that “instruction is best provided in a format that matches the preference of the learner.” Many of those studies suffered from weak research design, rendering them far from convincing. Others with an effective experimental design “found results that flatly contradict the popular” assumptions about learning styles (p. 105). In sum,
“The contrast between the enormous popularity of the learning-styles approach within education and the lack of credible evidence for its utility is, in our opinion, striking and disturbing” (p. 117).
So I don't understand howdyslexic visual learners hate phonics. It's weird or more likely untrue.
Anywho, less that 30% of kids are only visual learners. 65% of children use both visual and phonics in reading. I have no idea what the remaining 5% do. I hardly think any of these numbers are meaningful.
Some studies claim that 80% of teaching in the classroom is visual. However, my daughter said the newest research found that children learn more during classroom lectures - auditory learning.
Is that what ILTX is going on about: dyslexic and other cognitively-challenged students?
The other thing we need to ask, though, this being 2023, and all, is--how many first- and second-grade teachers who do teach phonics incorporate other methods as well, when teaching reading? And when do schools start teaching reading these days; the word is, that reading and simple math are being taught in kindergarten now.
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