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Because so many private schools do such a fine job with gifted kids.
And why expect the public schools to...
...do their jobs?
The job of a public school is to make sure that we have an educated society not to cater to individual desires of those who were given more to begin with. Public education is for the public and should be designed to meet the needs of society. What society gets from public schools is people who have attained, at least, the minimum requirements for graduation. If you want something beyond that, go to a magnet school.
The job of a public school is to make sure that we have an educated society not to cater to individual desires of those who were given more to begin with. Public education is for the public and should be designed to meet the needs of society. What society gets from public schools is people who have attained, at least, the minimum requirements for graduation. If you want something beyond that, go to a magnet school.
Magnet schools are public schools.
However, Ivory, I take issue with your basic statement, even though it explains so much about your practice as a teacher.
If you were right, then pretty much every public school that has a mission or vision statement would have to change it. Some samples from a random Google search on school mission statement:
[SIZE=3] All children benefit from developmentally appropriate materials, practices, and strategies.[/SIZE] [LEFT][SIZE=3]· All children deserve a quality education in which individual needs are met, exceeded, and supported.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]*****[/SIZE]
Every person is unique and deserves the opportunity to achieve his/her potential
******
each child can only be successful when we acknowledge all aspects of that child’s life; addressing their needs, enhancing their intellect, developing character, and uplifting their spirit. Finally, we recognize that individuals learn, grow and achieve differently, and it is therefore critical that, as a district, we provide a diversity of programs based on student needs.
*******
The Danville Public School Division will provide quality educational services that meet or exceed the needs of our customers.
*******
unconditionally committed to every child, ensuring that all students experience success through the development of attitudes and skills necessary for lifelong learning by providing the highest quality staff, meaningful learning experiences, and a vitally involved community.
********
Not "all but the brightest" or "many students."
ALL STUDENTS.
[/LEFT]
Your bolded statement may be what society gets from its schools (though I am skeptical of that, as well), but it is very clearly not what society needs from its schools.
This is our schools first year with the G&T program. From what I am told, it is now a state requirement, we are in Montana. My concern is that we now have a program for the gifted and talented kids who, obviously are doing quite well as it is. We have special education and resource for the kids who struggle. What do schools have for the kids in the middle? The kids who aren't quite gifted but don't require resource or special education. These kids are just kind of floating through school not knowing exactly where they belong. Isn't this kind of "segregation" harmful to kids self-esteem? The emphasis seems to be on the kids in the special programs and not on the kids in the regular classroom. I agree that schools should have resource room available to kids who struggle but to have another program is ridiculus. Use the funds for the kids who need it most. For the record, one of my children qualified for the gifted and talented program but my husband and I refused to have him tested. We would rather see school funding used for useful programs not programs to boost parent "bragging rights".
I think these programs are a good idea. it gives kids who would otherwise be bored silly the chance to develop their talents.
I think these programs are a good idea. it gives kids who would otherwise be bored silly the chance to develop their talents.
Playing devil's advocate here...
Since public schools are for the benefit of the public, in what way does paying for special programs for the elite benefit the public?
Here's the problem, here we have honors classes. They often have only a dozen students in them. That means other classes at the same time are over crowded and that teacher isn't available for that hour to help kids for whom an education can really make a difference. Why would it be of benefit to the public to spend your resources on those who have already been given much while you take away from other kids who could benefit from things like being in smaller sized classes?
Since public schools are for the benefit of the public, in what way does paying for special programs for the elite benefit the public?
Here's the problem, here we have honors classes. They often have only a dozen students in them. That means other classes at the same time are over crowded and that teacher isn't available for that hour to help kids for whom an education can really make a difference. Why would it be of benefit to the public to spend your resources on those who have already been given much while you take away from other kids who could benefit from things like being in smaller sized classes?
I was referring to education, not economics... no, I don't think the general student population should be cheated out of what they need in order to "give more" to the gifted group
I believe that "fair" doesn't always mean "the same". I think it's OK to try to meet everyone's individual needs. Of course, in a public school system, that won't always happen, but I believe the effort should be made. Most schools have some floor on class size; if not enough kids sign up for a class, even an honors class, it is not offered.
In regards to this question:
Quote:
Since public schools are for the benefit of the public, in what way does paying for special programs for the elite benefit the public?
If I weer the one defending the proram to a school board or newspaper reporter, etc, I would say that they help a student reach his/her maximum potental, perhaps serve as a dropout preventive.
I was referring to education, not economics... no, I don't think the general student population should be cheated out of what they need in order to "give more" to the gifted group
I'm referring to education as well. If honors calculus is at the same time as one of my regular chemistry classes (a course all students must take) and there are only 12 kids in honors calculus, there are more kids in all the other classes at that time because that class is not full. I have two very over crowded classes every year because they coincide with time slots when honors classes are offered. The kids who didn't take honors have to go somewhere. This means larger class sizes and less education for the other kids because honors was offered. Unless you hire extra teaches and we know the school isn't doing that
I have two chemistry classes with 27 kids in them and two with over 30. The two with over 30 are in time slots when an honors course that only has 6 kids in it is offered (we're a very small school so the effect of making one class small is felt quickly). That means more kids have to be peanut buttered across the other classrooms for that grade level at that time. While the honors kids enjoy a student to teacher ratio of between 6-12 to one, everyone else is dealing with 30 to one. We're cheating the other kids to accomodate the gifted. If education is for the public, that makes no sense. For that hour, we're spending disproportionatly on the gifted and cheating others out of an education. Even getting 3 kids out of my classes that have 30 kids would mean I could give more attention to each child in the class.
I believe that "fair" doesn't always mean "the same". I think it's OK to try to meet everyone's individual needs. Of course, in a public school system, that won't always happen, but I believe the effort should be made. Most schools have some floor on class size; if not enough kids sign up for a class, even an honors class, it is not offered.
In regards to this question:
If I weer the one defending the proram to a school board or newspaper reporter, etc, I would say that they help a student reach his/her maximum potental, perhaps serve as a dropout preventive.
G&T kids aren't the ones who drop out so that argument would backfire. It's the kids who get shortchanged when honors classes are offered who drop out.
Honors classes often have a lower "floor" because schools don't want to say they don't have them. After all, every parent is convinced their child is a genius . (both of my girls are in two honors classes each )
Reality is, if you have 300 students for every 10 teachers in a grade and one class has only 15 kids in it, the other 9 must absorb the other 15 kids. Offering things like honors classes increases class sizes for other classes which, ironically, have kids who need more support to learn.
I am not in favor of offering anything extra to G&T kids. IMO, jumping them up to whatever grade level class they fit is the most logical thing to do. It requires no special classes for them and doesn't result in class sizes outside of their class going up. (My dd's schools are large enough that they can fill their honors classes so it's really not an issue there. The school I work at is small enough that it is an issue. Since I teach core courses, all I have to do is look at which of my classes have the most students to find out which hours honors classes are offered.
And this is a double whammy. Not only do my class sizes go up but the top kids have been skimmed into the honors classes so I have a higher percentage of struggling students and don't have the better students who might be able to help their peers because they're in the honors class.
G&T kids aren't the ones who drop out so that argument would backfire. It's the kids who get shortchanged when honors classes are offered who drop out.
Honors classes often have a lower "floor" because schools don't want to say they don't have them. After all, every parent is convinced their child is a genius . (both of my girls are in two honors classes each )
Reality is, if you have 300 students for every 10 teachers in a grade and one class has only 15 kids in it, the other 9 must absorb the other 15 kids. Offering things like honors classes increases class sizes for other classes which, ironically, have kids who need more support to learn.
I am not in favor of offering anything extra to G&T kids. IMO, jumping them up to whatever grade level class they fit is the most logical thing to do. It requires no special classes for them and doesn't result in class sizes outside of their class going up. (My dd's schools are large enough that they can fill their honors classes so it's really not an issue there. The school I work at is small enough that it is an issue. Since I teach core courses, all I have to do is look at which of my classes have the most students to find out which hours honors classes are offered.
And this is a double whammy. Not only do my class sizes go up but the top kids have been skimmed into the honors classes so I have a higher percentage of struggling students and don't have the better students who might be able to help their peers because they're in the honors class.
I think you could find some stats that support that gifted kids get bored and drop out, too. At my kids' middle and high schools, they did just bump the kids up, but especailly in MS, some kids aren't quite ready for 8th grade work in say, 6th grade. One mom told me that when her daughter was in such a class for language arts/social studies that she could see that the older kids had more insight. Just one example.
I think you could find some stats that support that gifted kids get bored and drop out, too. At my kids' middle and high schools, they did just bump the kids up, but especailly in MS, some kids aren't quite ready for 8th grade work in say, 6th grade. One mom told me that when her daughter was in such a class for language arts/social studies that she could see that the older kids had more insight. Just one example.
I teach high school and you can't sell me that one. I'm sure it happens now and again but most drop outs are on the other end of the curve from where I sit. Even bored, a gifted child is more likely to have college aspirations and stay in school to get the piece of paper.
I've seen dozens of kids drop out and not one was gifted. If you want to bet as to who drops out, I'll take those odds. It's the kids who are struggling who drop out as a norm. Crunching numbers, helping them, you'll prevent way more drop outs than you'd prevent by giving G&T kids special classes. I'd lay odds it's on the order of about 20 to 1. Who is going to fare better? A gifted drop out or one who struggled in school? I gotta support putting the money and effort where it will do the most good.
If that child could see that the other kids had more insight, she'd been placed too high. Just move her down a class where the kids are on her level. It's really not difficult.
My younger dd is gifted. She's been double promoted and takes classes on multiple levels now. We had the option of sending her to the high school for math (she's in 7th grade) but decided that, at 11, she wasn't going to fit in and didn't. So she's in honors 8th grade math. She says it's easy but it doesn't bore her to tears. She does minimal work and pulls A's. It makes no sense to move her up to where she'd have issues.
Public education isn't about meeting individual needs but doing what is best for society. Spending disproportionately on the advantaged just makes no sense. Kids like my dd will well no matter what. Bumping her accomodates her to a point. Is it perfect? No. But no system would be.
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