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That was not easy to read with no paragraph breaks but I read it. I admit, I am not a fan of the Rust Belt, regardless of heritage. They seem to be waiting to be hand fed jobs, which the West simply never did. But when I read that the reason blacks didn't vote for Hillary is because she didn't pay them - that's disturbing to be honest. I get resentment at her not engaging them - that makes sense. But anger at not being paid? I don't expect money for my vote. Maybe that's just what has been done all along, blacks wait to be paid or they don't vote.
As for saying Democrats should come to blacks with a platform based on great paying jobs, well, that first requires an education. Are these blacks going to school to get these jobs? If so - great. But "holding out for a management position" when little more than a high school diploma is not going to get anyone far, black or white. Healthcare is a huge issue for Democrats regardless of skin color.
If blacks think liberals are acting like "white saviors" which I had never heard before, then what is the alternative? Would they rather liberals ignored them? It sounds like there is no good answer. Saying the only people that have helped blacks is other blacks is fine and if that's so, there's nothing for us to do, they've got it all under control. Truly, if blacks think Trump is better for them, they should vote for Trump.
Again, I'm being honest with you - black people have always thought whites in general, not just liberals - have a paternalistic attitude towards us like we are idiots - they have idiotic, racist thoughts about us in both the Democratic party and the Republican party and always have.
You've actually exhibited a lot of those thoughts - especially the blue.
FYI - over 50% of black high school graduates today go on to college today. I am a "young" Gen X and we are the most educated generation of black America has ever produced and the Millenials are more educated than us and Gen Z (iGen) are overtaking them. We are not the stereotypes many of you have carried over from the 1980s and 1990s, which is why she in particular didn't do well with black voters in black Democratic areas.
If you think engaging black voters by having jobs available is paying someone off - that is your naivete about the political process. Those people who are paid, will bring in the grass roots volunteers - they are coordinators and they do a very important job. Hillary had no coordinators in Detroit or Milwaukee and not even where I live in Toledo area in NW Ohio. I have family members who worked for the Obama campaign in both 2007-8 and 2011-12. Those jobs are not high paying but they are positions where younger people can network and get around/in front of people that will gain them better job opportunities. One of my cousins made minimum wage working for John Kerry's campaign in 2004 and today she makes over 6 figures - she has a Master's Degree (as do I and a large amount of my circle - every black person I know except my dad has attended college) and not all in liberal arts either or social sciences. The idea that you'd believe I'm talking about high paying jobs for high school drop outs or diploma having people was silly as well and paternalistic in nature in that you'd believe I just want every stupid joe schmoe black to be given a job by you's democrats lol.
I'll note on jobs, that limiting visas for foreign workers is/would be a good thing as well to push to black voters. I lived in Atlanta metro area for a long time, a place with a large STEM base for opportunities for employment, however both black and whites have issues obtaining decent paying STEM jobs because of the influx of visa workers who lower wages and who take the jobs of qualified black people in the metro. I know a lot of black men and women with a high degree of education and experience in STEM who have had to move from metro Atlanta because they couldn't find a job paying over $40k per year. Some even moved to your area (Seattle area) and now make 3 -4 times what they made in Atlanta. Most of my friends in Atlanta are black professionals, same as where I live now (most now are black entrepreneurs/business owners) and they are not as concerned about illegal immigration in particular and those low paying jobs as they are about higher paying jobs being available to them and to our kids in the future. The illegal immigrants can have those agriculture and dishwasher jobs.
Bill Clinton, Hillary's husband had a huge showing amongst black voters because his campaign heavily engaged with black voters. Hillary instead stayed with white liberals such as yourself, who have a disdain for anyone not like you and who are far from the mainstream in this country in regards to your attitude. That is why she lost. The next Democratic candidate, hopefully won't be as stupid. And I'll hope you'll do like I mentioned white liberals do where I live in that you will learn to listen. Everyone is not like you and won't be like you. That is reality. You have to go out and listen to them about what they want and compromise and follow through on providing those things. Advertising on a black radio station is good for Dems and the black radio station. Hiring a black engagement coordinator or contracting with a black PAC to do outreach in black neighborhoods (which is the trend - note this is what got Doug Jones elected BTW in Alabama - it wasn't Doug Jones himself - it was PACs lead by young black people who went out and made sure that black voters voted) will help the Democrats and provide jobs and networking opportunities for workers. It's a win-win and nothing to fight over unless you want to be bullheaded and attack your base and continue to lose.
Again, I'm being honest with you - black people have always thought whites in general, not just liberals - have a paternalistic attitude towards us like we are idiots - they have idiotic, racist thoughts about us in both the Democratic party and the Republican party and always have.
You've actually exhibited a lot of those thoughts - especially the blue.
FYI - over 50% of black high school graduates today go on to college today. I am a "young" Gen X and we are the most educated generation of black America has ever produced and the Millenials are more educated than us and Gen Z (iGen) are overtaking them. We are not the stereotypes many of you have carried over from the 1980s and 1990s, which is why she in particular didn't do well with black voters in black Democratic areas.
If you think engaging black voters by having jobs available is paying someone off - that is your naivete about the political process. Those people who are paid, will bring in the grass roots volunteers - they are coordinators and they do a very important job. Hillary had no coordinators in Detroit or Milwaukee and not even where I live in Toledo area in NW Ohio. I have family members who worked for the Obama campaign in both 2007-8 and 2011-12. Those jobs are not high paying but they are positions where younger people can network and get around/in front of people that will gain them better job opportunities. One of my cousins made minimum wage working for John Kerry's campaign in 2004 and today she makes over 6 figures - she has a Master's Degree (as do I and a large amount of my circle - every black person I know except my dad has attended college) and not all in liberal arts either or social sciences. The idea that you'd believe I'm talking about high paying jobs for high school drop outs or diploma having people was silly as well and paternalistic in nature in that you'd believe I just want every stupid joe schmoe black to be given a job by you's democrats lol.
I'll note on jobs, that limiting visas for foreign workers is/would be a good thing as well to push to black voters. I lived in Atlanta metro area for a long time, a place with a large STEM base for opportunities for employment, however both black and whites have issues obtaining decent paying STEM jobs because of the influx of visa workers who lower wages and who take the jobs of qualified black people in the metro. I know a lot of black men and women with a high degree of education and experience in STEM who have had to move from metro Atlanta because they couldn't find a job paying over $40k per year. Some even moved to your area (Seattle area) and now make 3 -4 times what they made in Atlanta. Most of my friends in Atlanta are black professionals, same as where I live now (most now are black entrepreneurs/business owners) and they are not as concerned about illegal immigration in particular and those low paying jobs as they are about higher paying jobs being available to them and to our kids in the future. The illegal immigrants can have those agriculture and dishwasher jobs.
Bill Clinton, Hillary's husband had a huge showing amongst black voters because his campaign heavily engaged with black voters. Hillary instead stayed with white liberals such as yourself, who have a disdain for anyone not like you and who are far from the mainstream in this country in regards to your attitude. That is why she lost. The next Democratic candidate, hopefully won't be as stupid. And I'll hope you'll do like I mentioned white liberals do where I live in that you will learn to listen. Everyone is not like you and won't be like you. That is reality. You have to go out and listen to them about what they want and compromise and follow through on providing those things. Advertising on a black radio station is good for Dems and the black radio station. Hiring a black engagement coordinator or contracting with a black PAC to do outreach in black neighborhoods (which is the trend - note this is what got Doug Jones elected BTW in Alabama - it wasn't Doug Jones himself - it was PACs lead by young black people who went out and made sure that black voters voted) will help the Democrats and provide jobs and networking opportunities for workers. It's a win-win and nothing to fight over unless you want to be bullheaded and attack your base and continue to lose.
I know blacks that work at my same tech company in Seattle and not only are they successful, they don't treat their co-workers, which are West Coast liberals, as the enemy or that they are pretending to be "white saviors," something I've never heard before. They are just coworkers. It sounds like a no-win situation since blacks could interpret any sort of kindness as condescending. Thankfully, and hopefully, they don't have the kinds of perceptions expressed here and hopefully those with those attitudes remain in the Rust Belt since they obviously don't like us. It would be really depressing to learn that the black guy I thought was so awesome thought I was some "white savior" type and would destroy every bit of work camaraderie we have.
Yes, a lot of people (and I did say black or white) need to be told an education is necessary for better paying jobs. I'm guessing there are far more foreign workers in Seattle, typically Asian, than there are in Atlanta, but wages in Seattle are still higher. Republicans love to call education "elitist" and yet complain about wages. I appreciate the education; I never knew blacks expected to be paid for their vote and while I could see how it could be leveraged via contacts, I think if our entire voting system was based on hiring voters, there would be no point, since the whole thing would be a money game of buying votes.
I know blacks that work at my same tech company in Seattle and not only are they successful, they don't treat their co-workers, which are West Coast liberals, as the enemy or that they are pretending to be "white saviors," something I've never heard before. They are just coworkers. It sounds like a no-win situation since blacks could interpret any sort of kindness as condescending. Thankfully, and hopefully, they don't have the kinds of perceptions expressed here and hopefully those with those attitudes remain in the Rust Belt since they obviously don't like us. It would be really depressing to learn that the black guy I thought was so awesome thought I was some "white savior" type and would destroy every bit of work camaraderie we have.
Yes, a lot of people (and I did say black or white) need to be told an education is necessary for better paying jobs. I'm guessing there are far more foreign workers in Seattle, typically Asian, than there are in Atlanta, but wages in Seattle are still higher. Republicans love to call education "elitist" and yet complain about wages. I appreciate the education; I never knew blacks expected to be paid for their vote and while I could see how it could be leveraged via contacts, I think if our entire voting system was based on hiring voters, there would be no point, since the whole thing would be a money game of buying votes.
Sigh, I don't think white people are my enemies. I just don't view them as a savior for me or some benefactor that I need to thank for civil rights so don't feel obliged to take my black butt out and vote for a Democrat because you saved me from whatever you think you saved me from. Not sure why you don't get that - as noted - you need to listen.
Also, again, jobs on a campaign is not "paying people to vote." It is hiring people who will advocate for you in a particular segment of the voting demographics. You should stop being so emotional and pay attention to what people are telling you. Interestingly, as a part of my career (I work in sourcing strategy and supply chain) I have had to hire political consultants and PACs for organizations I've worked for - most were white Republicans but some were white Democrats who were going to work for the organizations and lobby for things that the organization wanted to achieve with government officials or voters. Me working to hire those people for the organizations I worked for, was not me buying all white Republican's votes - it was hiring a company to go out and spread a message and advocate for goals. Democrats have always done this with black voters and Hillary made a mistake in not doing it. Doug Jones did it in Alabama and was successful. Other states and local areas are doing it and they are usually successful and they, like myself, don't do it only with black people.
I'll also note, I work in a professional career and make close to 6 figures myself in little old Ohio. I am only one of two black people in my department. I don't speak to my white co-workers about political things or the historic pattern of paternalism of white Americans throughout the history of this nation. That is not work conversation. Your black co-workers wouldn't necessarily share these things with you and you not knowing about the white savior complex (which is hard to believe) is proof that you are not engaged with black people in this country. It is a common view that many black people have of whites and even one that white people/media outlets have written about and commented on. That complex is not inherent to one or the other major political party. It is something that is a huge part of our country's history.
Regardless of how you feel about Donald Trump, the Russia investigation or the hooker that he paid off, let's assume that Donald Trump is the Republican candidate for President in 2020.
Regardless of who wins the Democrat primary elections or ends up running against Donald Trump in 2020, let's assume they both survive physically and politically until the election day.
Which platforms/issues/topics will Democrats run on to defeat Donald Trump?
What will Democrats run on and how will they possibly beat Donald Trump on that issue?
They need a steller candidate. This past election was theirs to win but they chose a candidate with a lot of baggage. Their strategy should not blather on ad nauseum about a female president as that's insulting to professionals who happen to be women. They need to understand that sex workers get paid to go away so their outrage is a nonstory. Economy is what they should stick to.
Sigh, I don't think white people are my enemies. I just don't view them as a savior for me or some benefactor that I need to thank for civil rights so don't feel obliged to take my black butt out and vote for a Democrat because you saved me from whatever you think you saved me from. Not sure why you don't get that - as noted - you need to listen.
Also, again, jobs on a campaign is not "paying people to vote." It is hiring people who will advocate for you in a particular segment of the voting demographics. You should stop being so emotional and pay attention to what people are telling you. Interestingly, as a part of my career (I work in sourcing strategy and supply chain) I have had to hire political consultants and PACs for organizations I've worked for - most were white Republicans but some were white Democrats who were going to work for the organizations and lobby for things that the organization wanted to achieve with government officials or voters. Me working to hire those people for the organizations I worked for, was not me buying all white Republican's votes - it was hiring a company to go out and spread a message and advocate for goals. Democrats have always done this with black voters and Hillary made a mistake in not doing it. Doug Jones did it in Alabama and was successful. Other states and local areas are doing it and they are usually successful and they, like myself, don't do it only with black people.
I'll also note, I work in a professional career and make close to 6 figures myself in little old Ohio. I am only one of two black people in my department. I don't speak to my white co-workers about political things or the historic pattern of paternalism of white Americans throughout the history of this nation. That is not work conversation. Your black co-workers wouldn't necessarily share these things with you and you not knowing about the white savior complex (which is hard to believe) is proof that you are not engaged with black people in this country. It is a common view that many black people have of whites and even one that white people/media outlets have written about and commented on. That complex is not inherent to one or the other major political party. It is something that is a huge part of our country's history.
No, I can't say I've heard of the white savior complex. No I don't think I need to "engage" with black people regarding a complex I never heard about so that I can develop a dislike I didn't have.
Just because I don't agree, doesn't mean I didn't listen. I simply don't agree.
If Democratic politicians are paying black voters to "advocate" for them, that's something they can sort out. It sounds unseemly to me and I'm glad I'm not a part of that.
I would rather give my black co-workers the benefit of the doubt, rather than assume that their camaraderie is less than sincere. It may be, but I see no upside in learning that and acting on it or developing a resentment that didn't exist previously. There's nothing to be gained from it. If there is as much repressed anger as is implied in these posts, there's nothing I can do about that beyond being a supportive peer or collaborator. What they choose to do with that is up to them.
Politically, if they think Trump and the GOP will better serve their interests, they should vote that way.
The average voter doesn’t care about the day to day life of the candidates. If Trump can deliver on a semi-strong economy, then he won’t be beat in 2020. If Trump continues to act like an idiot and the economy sours, then he has an uphill battle.
His tariff trade war is already ruining the economy.
He s a cheat.
Cut him loose and get someone else in there.
No, I can't say I've heard of the white savior complex. No I don't think I need to "engage" with black people regarding a complex I never heard about so that I can develop a dislike I didn't have.
Just because I don't agree, doesn't mean I didn't listen. I simply don't agree.
If Democratic politicians are paying black voters to "advocate" for them, that's something they can sort out. It sounds unseemly to me and I'm glad I'm not a part of that.
I would rather give my black co-workers the benefit of the doubt, rather than assume that their camaraderie is less than sincere. It may be, but I see no upside in learning that and acting on it or developing a resentment that didn't exist previously. There's nothing to be gained from it. If there is as much repressed anger as is implied in these posts, there's nothing I can do about that beyond being a supportive peer or collaborator. What they choose to do with that is up to them.
Politically, if they think Trump and the GOP will better serve their interests, they should vote that way.
By engage, I mean you've more than likely never had a serious conversation with a black person about racial history when it comes the white savior complex.
Many black politically involved people in the Democratic party complain about it and confront it (very bluntly) all the time. Maybe because you live in Seattle and black Democrats there may not be as vocal as black Democrats in other areas (which I doubt - most black Democrats are pretty forthcoming about this sort of thing occurring in the Democratic party).
There have been articles even on HuffPo and The Atlantic about the white savior complex. It was a huge focus when the movie "Get Out" came out last year. Look it up.
And again, there is no reason for your black co-workers to talk to you about these things. I've never spoken to my white co-workers about this subject at all. But we still have a friendly relationship with each other and a sense of comraderie. Luckily they don't ask about it because I'm not shy and I would tell them if they asked. In the past I was asked some rather silly racial questions by white co-workers and they got upset at my response because they thought I'd agree with them on something that I didn't agree with them on. I rarely start political discussions at work. I think most people don't.
I do agree if anyone thinks another party will best serve their interest they should support that party - but if you are a Democrat and you want to defeat Trump, and you are serious about that - like a lot of white liberals are - then you need to engage with black voters in the Rust Belt. They will give you the electoral college because of the high percentage of black voters coupled with the white Democrats in the Rust Belt will win the presidency.
On anger, note, I'm not angry and I doubt your black co-workers are. I mentioned in another thread on a similar topic that black Americans - we talk a lot amongst each other about political topics and we are very "debate" oriented in our media and personal lives. We often are less emotional or angry about things than whites who seem to take offense or get defensive about basic historic facts like there being a history of white paternalism in America towards the black population - that paternalism has been deemed by black Democrats as "the white savior complex." This is not anger - it is just something that occurs and to be aware of for us. It doesn't mean we hate white people or don't like white people, we just recognize this sort of attitude or expression when it happens. And you saying that black people were helped (or whatever exactly you said) by white Democrats in regards to civil rights, was an example of this sort of attitude/expression - nothing more to me and nothing that anger me or most black people I know. If anything it is funny as in a "here they go again" sort of thing. I've even had these thoughts at work when a white co-worker has indeed said something paternalistic about black people or another minority group. I am still friendly and kind towards them - I recognize that that is just the way they are and I'm not trying to change people's political or social views at work. I don't want to engage in the reactions you all have. The emotional reaction (in regards to you thinking jobs and advertising with black media is "buying votes") is a defensive mechanism that I personally find childish. It doesn't make me mad that you did it or when other do it. I don't get mad over internet things and most mature people don't or shouldn't IMO. But it is also common knowledge by many black people that whites see us as "angry" all the time. I cannot help if you think I'm or another black person is angry or will be angry with you. I'm personally not a fearful person or an angry person and am rather happy. I was just giving some advice to Dems on how to win an election - regardless if you want to admit it or not - one of the reasons Hillary lost is because of what I mentioned in my first post on the subject of black voters. Ignore them and they'll ignore you. Democrats cannot afford to lose black voters in certain states/locales or they lose in the electoral college by 11,000 votes (like Michigan).
ETA: For Seacove I'll also refer you to this article written by Michelle Alexander, author of "The New Jim Crow."
The items she discussed in this article were HOT topics on black media in Detroit in particular and they did influence black voters not going out to vote in Detroit. They felt, like she quoted of WEB DuBois (who also spoke a lot about the paternalist nature of white liberals - as did MLK and even Frederick Douglas did in the 19th century - so this is not a new thing) that neither Hillary or Trump had the best interest of black people at heart. Many of us, including myself, we still did support her, but her not reaching out and changing the narrative from voices such as Alexander, Ta-Nahesi Coates, Michael Harriott of the blog "Very Smart Brothers" (bought by The Root) and others who constantly spoke/wrote about and are still speaking/writing about this same message - hurt her in the Rust Belt in particular. Especially in Michigan, Wisconsin, and Pennsylvania - states that if she'd won, she would have been president and which she would have won if she had reached out more to urban black voters in Detroit, Flint, Milwaukee, and metro Philadelphia.
Last edited by residinghere2007; 07-27-2018 at 10:10 AM..
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