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With over 160M people voting this election and unproven claims of fraud all over that are running rampant plus many frivolous lawsuits do you really think that pissing off the public will be a concern to those that don't want the election to continue? There are affidavits in court from people who claimed that someone looked at them funny. Pushing a button and stopping an election is nothing.
I understand what you are saying. I'm thinking voting can run smooth like when a city-counsel meeting is run smooth. Each person that wants to speak is announced in order they will speak. So each person knows when they are allowed to speak. If someone in the public goes to the podium and speaks out of turn, the person who's turn it is to speak has their index tag to prove they are next to speak. The out of order person is ordered to sit down.
Same thing with the public at a precinct- the precinct superintendent will maintain public order. Everyone in the public is watching the big room screen show each vote on each ballot tallied, one at a time. IF the poll counter worker (maybe nefarious) keeps tallying to the wrong candidate, that is immediately seen by the public and voting SHOULD stop.
No typical precinct superintendent is going to allow disorder in the voting place. If a precinct can't even count votes on camera correctly, they sure can't be trusted to do so in the private counting room.
Ballots are going to be looked at, on camera and big screen, one by one, and vote tallied. This will become boring and ordinary. Maybe 1000 vote counts go by with no irregularity. How hard is it to look at a simple ballot of:
Trump___
or
Biden____
And tally the marked candidate +1?
Currently all we have now are poll watchers from both sides being the 'watchdogs' as ballots are tallied. However, now we have claims that poll workers can't observe recounting close enough. And I watched a guy claim the audit re-counter make mistakes over and over. How can that be proven?
Currently, when a poll watcher sees an irregularity they can't stop the voting. They are just observers. They can report what they see but election officials don't care. If my video system takes 3 extra days, so be it- it's better to go slower and have public observers, and video evidence, than go faster with neither and trust the current system. Which falls apart when margins are thin.
This isn't about Trump losing. It's about how unverifiable our current voting system is. Some people may not want provable verification? If not, what are they wanting to hide?
I understand what you are saying. I'm thinking voting can run smooth like when a city-counsel meeting is run smooth. Each person that wants to speak is announced in order they will speak. So each person knows when they are allowed to speak. If someone in the public goes to the podium and speaks out of turn, the person who's turn it is to speak has their index tag to prove they are next to speak. The out of order person is ordered to sit down.
Same thing with the public at a precinct- the precinct superintendent will maintain public order. Everyone in the public is watching the big room screen show each vote on each ballot tallied, one at a time. IF the poll counter worker (maybe nefarious) keeps tallying to the wrong candidate, that is immediately seen by the public and voting SHOULD stop. No typical precinct superintendent is going to allow disorder in the voting place. Ballots are going to be looked at one by one and vote tallied. This will become boring and ordinary. Maybe 1000 vote counts go by with no irregularity. How hard is it to look at simple ballot of:
Trump___
or
Biden____
And tally the marked candidate +1? We have poll workers from both sides doing this now when ballots are tallied. However, now we have claims that poll workers can't observe recounting, etc. And I say a guy claim the audit re-counter make mistakes over and over. How can that be proven? And when a poll watcher sees an irregularity they can't stop the voting. They are just observers. They can report what they see but election officials don't care. If my video system takes 3 extra days, so be it- it's better to go slower than faster and have the video evidence captured.
I guess you have never been to a city counsel meeting on a heated topic. I have. People screaming over each other, a hour long meeting turning into a 4 hour meeting, police having to clear the room. And this was in a small city regarding local issues, not an election.
Maintaining the order is going to be impossible when there are people that want nothing more than to foul the whole system. All it takes is a line of people hitting stop and the election then drags out longer while those claims are reviewed. Like I said we have seen the false claims all over for this election, now imagine if those false claims were able to effectively halt the election in major cities.
This plan is unworkable due to humans being human, and the sheer amount of time that it would take to vote and process each count. Your plan would already take far longer than 3 extra days even if no one halted the process. It would be a year round endeavor for years on end, to hold one election.
I guess you have never been to a city counsel meeting on a heated topic. I have. People screaming over each other, a hour long meeting turning into a 4 hour meeting, police having to clear the room. And this was in a small city regarding local issues, not an election.
Maintaining the order is going to be impossible when there are people that want nothing more than to foul the whole system. All it takes is a line of people hitting stop and the election then drags out longer while those claims are reviewed. Like I said we have seen the false claims all over for this election, now imagine if those false claims were able to effectively halt the election in major cities.
This plan is unworkable due to humans being human, and the sheer amount of time that it would take to vote and process each count. Your plan would already take far longer than 3 extra days even if no one halted the process. It would be a year round endeavor for years on end, to hold one election.
-
I agree the public can cause disruption. If the stop button is abused the claim process can be adjusted at any time. If the public can't behave inside a precinct room they are kicked out by the precinct superintendent and can watch online.
Also, if needed change claim process to allow only selected poll watchers from both sides can press the stop button. Not anyone in the public. This is acceptable in the system.
Also, with a simple president only ballot, my system would be faster then any other voting method, even though the current system doesn't have video to prove anything. Video does not slow down voting or counting.
Hand counting is slow. I admit that. However, let's look at Orange County, FL. How many voters at a precinct? How many mail-ins?
2020 Election Orange County, FL:
1,795 precincts
votes in person: 260,988 (16.9%)
vote by Mail Ballots: 1,285,616 (83.1%)
Total Ballots Cast all precincts: 1,546,377 (100%)
Thus an average of only about 861 ballots per precinct. (1,546,377 / 1,795)
My system can handle that in one day. However most voters opted to mail-in. That's ok too because the same validation used currently to authenticate a mail-in can be used in my system. The difference is my system captures the mail-in envelope and ballot cast (secretly) on video. Is that so hard?
The current system does not video anything. IN my system at end of voting all ballots are in a random pile in the ballot box, both the cast in person, and mail-ins. Then all ballots are hand counted out of the box (random order) on video. Hand counting is conventional and removes any possibility of machine error or hack. It's slower yes, but worth it.
Why can't we video each ballot cast into a box (remaining secret), and each vote count on a ballot? At each precinct room?
That's all my system does. In a simple ballot for president, there are only two candidates on the ballot. it will be fast. Also, a second ballot page can be used for all the other things to vote for- judges, referendums, etc. That will be slower. But still on video. Currently ballot counting is done by machine. At least have the president vote hand counted on video.
Speed doesn't matter as much as voting integrity and provability which our current system doesn't have. So what if it takes 3 or more days? Integrity and provability are too valuable not to have, especially in heated elections with thin margins.
I agree the public can cause disruption. If the stop button is abused the claim process can be adjusted at any time. If the public can't behave inside a precinct room they are kicked out by the precinct superintendent and can watch online.
Also, if needed change claim process to allow only selected poll watchers from both sides can press the stop button. Not anyone in the public. This is acceptable in the system.
Also, with a simple president only ballot, my system would be faster then any other voting method, even though the current system doesn't have video to prove anything. Video does not slow down voting or counting.
Hand counting is slow. I admit that. However, let's look at Orange County, FL. How many voters at a precinct? How many mail-ins?
2020 Election Orange County, FL:
1,795 precincts
votes in person: 260,988 (16.9%)
vote by Mail Ballots: 1,285,616 (83.1%)
Total Ballots Cast all precincts: 1,546,377 (100%)
Thus an average of only about 861 ballots per precinct. (1,546,377 / 1,795)
My system can handle that in one day. However most voters opted to mail-in. That's ok too because the same validation used currently to authenticate a mail-in can be used in my system. The difference is my system captures the mail-in envelope and ballot cast (secretly) on video. Is that so hard?
The current system does not video anything. IN my system at end of voting all ballots are in a random pile in the ballot box, both the cast in person, and mail-ins. Then all ballots are hand counted out of the box (random order) on video. Hand counting is conventional and removes any possibility of machine error or hack. It's slower yes, but worth it.
Why can't we video each ballot cast into a box (remaining secret), and each vote count on a ballot? At each precinct room?
That's all my system does. In a simple ballot for president, there are only two candidates on the ballot. it will be fast. Also, a second ballot page can be used for all the other things to vote for- judges, referendums, etc. That will be slower. But still on video. Currently ballot counting is done by machine. At least have the president vote hand counted on video.
Speed doesn't matter as much as voting integrity and provability which our current system doesn't have. So what if it takes 3 or more days? Integrity and provability are too valuable not to have, especially in heated elections with thin margins.
Your calculations do not take into account population density. I lived in FL for years in several different areas both in cities and rural. In the rural areas we may have had 100-200 ballots cast no wait. In the city areas several thousand and sometimes hours long wait times. And none of those areas are as densely populated as NYC where there can be thousands living an a square block (27,000 per sq mile).
Your calculations do not take into account population density. I lived in FL for years in several different areas both in cities and rural. In the rural areas we may have had 100-200 ballots cast no wait. In the city areas several thousand and sometimes hours long wait times. And none of those areas are as densely populated as NYC where there can be thousands living an a square block (27,000 per sq mile).
Thanks for constructive feedback.
When a city block has 5,000 people any voting system will need early voting. That's ok. It doesn't matter how many people want to vote- or where, or how long it takes, just capture it on video using my system protocols and it will work. In my system a precinct can set up multiple ballot drop boxes/counting tables, as long as EACH is captured on video with the system protocols (which are easy and simple).
Capturing voting on video will not slow down voting. Unless there is camera malfunction. Then voting will stop. Capturing voting on video will provide proof of voting integrity. That's what we need from every precinct. Whatever the voting system- as long as the voter's credentials, the ballot casting, and ballot counting are captures on video, that works for me. However, our voting system now does not allow this. Putting a camera in a precinct room now would prove nothing.
We can't trust a machine to count ballots without any way to prove it was accurate. The only way to know if a ballot was counted accurately is to see each ballot as it was tallied.
What would be ok in my system is to use a counting machines that photos each ballot, counts it, and gives a final total, and does it very fast. BUT we can't depend or accept the final machine totals are accurate, until verified by humans, and this can be done with everyone watching, and captured on camera for the public. This way everyone sees that the machine counted accurately.
Your feedback was helpful. I don't see why a machine like that, as long as the photos are reviewed to confirm the machine tallied accurately. Which still means looking at each machine ballot photo and the tally it added for each ballot.
And the video of who you voted for should be saved and accessible for future employers who would want to make hiring decisions based on your voting choices.
And the video of who you voted for should be saved and accessible for future employers who would want to make hiring decisions based on your voting choices.
Nope. You didn't read my system. Ballots are kept secret at all times. From when they are dropped into the ballot box, and when counted on the table on camera. You do not sign your ballot. No one knows which ballot was dropped by which voter.
The video of counting the votes from each ballot is posted online. Each ballot is on video - and in the same screen shot the real time tally of whatever candidate from each ballot. This provides video proof that ballots at the precinct were tallied accurately. And the video proves only the ballots that were dropped into the ballot box at that precinct were tallied. Not one extra. Not one less. An index sticker wit precinct#/vote count# is put on each ballot when it's looked at for tallying. This proves that those ballots in the video being tallied are at precinct X.
When you watch the playback video of the ballot counting, you see who the voter voted for on the ballot, but there is nothing on the ballot to identify the voter. You do not sign your ballot (unless you want to). You also see the tally add +1 to the candidate that has the vote mark. For example if the tally for candidate D is 1324 and the next ballot is shown and the vote is for candidate D, a poll worker adds +1 to candidate D's tally. And so on each ballot.
Now we have video proof that each ballot was tallied accurately. And no one can identify any ballot to a voter. So how can you know if your ballot was counted? Which ballot was yours in the video playback? Easy. Just write something random on your ballot- a scribble, word, number, something random. Find that ballot in the video- it's yours! And check that the poll worker added +1 to the candidate you voted for. Now you have proof your vote was counted!
Also, in my system each ballot at a precinct is tallied one at a time, and a precinct/ index number is placed on each ballot as they are vote tallied, starting at 1 and up. This index number has nothing to so with a voter, it's just a count of ballots at that precinct. In the video the last index number on the last ballot should equal the total number of ballots dropped into the ballot box, not one extra, not one less.
When you find your ballot in the video, and say it has index number 1434, and say they added +1 to the wrong candidate, you can notify election officials and tell them to look at index number 1434 at precinct X video.
You guys are wasting your time. Trump solved all the flaws in the election system. This past election was perfect.
...according to the Democrats and the Democrat News Media.
ironic isn't it? Anyway, this thread is not about the 2020 election. It's about a better voting system to prevent all this nonsense from happening again. There is no trust in machine voting. Or even in paper ballot and hand counting. We need a voting system that provides proof of tallies, and ballot audit tracking. We don't have that.
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