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Well this definitely sucks. The Swiss have to live through the tyranny of the non-Swiss who are imposing their views at the expense of what the Swiss truly want.
I don't really get that point-of-view. They joined EFTA voluntarily and signed the Bilateral Agreements I and II without being forced to do so. Now they implicitly chose to get rid of the Bilaterals and you are saying that that's the EU's fault?
What were people expecting? "Hey Germany! I hope it's cool that we won't let you people in our country anymore. But we still want to move around Billions of Euros from your tax evading citizens' money for free. And of course German companies are still allowed to move and pay taxes here instead of back home. Oh, and please tell Brussels to wire me the money for my Horizon 2020 project till August."
Switzerland chose to void the agreements, so now they have to live with the consequences. Those include for now:
- No Erasmus+ for students. Get ready to be treated like an exchange student from another continent.
- No Horizon 2020 for ETH Lausanne/EPFL. Billions of Euros lost.
- The EU may bar Swiss banks from selling to retail clients living in EU member states.
- Suspension of the energy talks.
- Exclusion from the MEDIA programme.
- More to come.
A high price to pay for empty trains. One of the main arguments to vote for the initiative, by the way.
Switzerland was a de facto member of the EU since the late 90's, enjoying most of the goodies. Now they chose to withdraw from that and everybody says the EU is pure evil because they don't accept this democratic decision? What do people expect from us? To grant them all the goodies without anything in exchange, just because we want to be the good guy for once?
Location: West Los Angeles and Rancho Palos Verdes
13,583 posts, read 15,672,061 times
Reputation: 14049
Quote:
Originally Posted by scobby
The Swiss may loose the ability to recruit skilled immigrants for their research institute and will eventually fall behind other countries in technology and science
I'm so sick of that canard. Globalists pulled the same thing here in the U.S., and now the tech fields are flooded with low cost labor that makes it unreasonably difficult for real Americans to find employment.
I can't see it having a difficulty in recruiting skilled immigrants. The Swiss can decide themselves what type of immigrants they need and how many. I can't see any advantage in countries not having control of their own borders.
I can't see it having a difficulty in recruiting skilled immigrants. The Swiss can decide themselves what type of immigrants they need and how many. I can't see any advantage in countries not having control of their own borders.
THERE IS NO QUESTION OF THE SWISS NOT HAVING CONTROL OF THEIR OWN BORDERS....
The Swiss DO have control of their own borders.
THEY chose to limit/modify that control in treaties with the EU. Presumably they did so because they saw an advantage in doing so.
Now THEY have decided to consider policies that will impact these treaties; therefore, THEY must have decided that such a course has advantages to them. Unilateral attempts to change the terms of a treaty mean that the treaty becomes null and void, or that difficult and acrimonious renegotiations will be necessary. THE SWISS have made this move, just as they have made those previous.
Nowhere in this is there any question of another country controlling Swiss borders against the will of the Swiss government.
The Swiss have not been forced to do anything, they have entered into treaties voluntarily. If they choose to abrogate the conditions of these treaties, no one has forced them to do that either.
From what I understand, the Swiss are not talking about getting rid of all immigrants completely - they are talking about limitations, and it's a different thing.
What "skills" are you talking about, that "swiss residents didn't have?" And how many foreigners are there with those specific skills?
And how many without those skills, yet trying to reside in Switzerland?
Again - what "severe skill shortage?"
You are talking about one of the wealthiest European countries; how did they manage to make it before, with all their "severe skill shortage," without any immigrants?
they get 160k immigrants from the EU a year, 90k swiss leave every year so they want to cap it so they get a net migration rate of 10k.
switzerland unemployment rate is 3% so 240k are unemployed. 300k of EU workers in switzerland commute from across the border so after borders are closed, you'll have 300k jobs suddenly available. another 100k of jobs will be available because not all foreigners in switzerland have a C permit which you get after 5 years of residency (permanent residence). so 400k of skilled jobs which can vary from experienced Doctors, lawyers, accountants, managers and many more available to 240k swiss people, who are most likely unskilled teenagers who have just come out of high school. 10k a year isn't going to fill that gap fast enough to not cause economic problems.
yes, we are talking about the wealthiest country in europe. they became that way because of immigration, thats why 35% of their population are of non-swiss background. if those 35% wern't there from the beginning, where would switzerland be right now ? for a starters it would be a country with 3 million less people/workers. 3 million less people adding wealth to the country. 3 million foreigners and they still only have 3% unemployed.
And Switzerland /other European countries are not America. Each and every country has its own culture; they are not just money-making machines, no matter who-what-how.
Why are you so worried how they manage their affairs?
i'm not swiss, it doesn't really affect me. i just find it bizarre that such a wealthy, intelligent nation is willing to give a middle finger to all those that helped build Switzerland up to where it is now and sacrifice it all for the sake of nationalism.
yes, we are talking about the wealthiest country in europe. they became that way because of immigration, thats why 35% of their population are of non-swiss background. if those 35% wern't there from the beginning, where would switzerland be right now ? for a starters it would be a country with 3 million less people/workers. 3 million less people adding wealth to the country. 3 million foreigners and they still only have 3% unemployed.
The problem with your point of view is that you are making plenty of assumptions with not much base to them. Lets take the part I quoted from your pre-previous post as a perfect example.
First of all, Switzerland has an extremely high immigration rate (read the second part of this post) which puts into question your notion that the 35% of foreigners in Switzerland were there "from the beginning." Much, if not most, of those foreigners are relatively recent arrivals because Switzerland didn't always had such a high immigration rate.
Secondly, Switzerland is NOT the wealthiest country in Europe, which further adds evidence to the fact that you are simply inventing stuff about this country for the sole reason you don't like their decision to tighten their border. This is understandable since you have said you are not Swiss, especially when we consider that very few countries, not just in Europe but also worldwide, can even remotely know what it feels like to have one's country flooded with foreigners rather quickly because not many countries have as high, or higher, of a migration flow as the Swiss do. The richest country in Europe is Norway ($55,400) and they are not as flooding with foreigners as the Swiss are.
Thirdly, Switzerland has been a wealthy country since before the immigration boom started, as can be seen in this chart:
They did it before without being massively flooded with foreigners and with tighter border controls in terms of migration, money flows, and all other types of flows between Switzerland and every other country on earth, including the rest of the Europe. There is no reason they will not be able to do the same again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sentry12
i'm not swiss, it doesn't really affect me. i just find it bizarre that such a wealthy, intelligent nation is willing to give a middle finger to all those that helped build Switzerland up to where it is now
I think it may be hard for some people to understand the Swiss because not many countries are being flooded with foreigners.
Switzerland 6.14 migrant (s) / 1,000 population (2013's.)
Compare that to its immediate neighbors:
Italy 4.47 migrant (s) / 1,000 population (2013's.) Lietchtenstein 4.35 migrant (s) / 1,000 population (2013's.) Austria 1.78 migrant (s) / 1,000 population (2013's.) France 1.1 migrant (s) / 1,000 population (2013's.) Germany 0.89 migrant (s) / 1,000 population (2013's.)
And to other nations:
Spain 6.14 migrant (s) / 1,000 population (2013's.) United States 3.64 migrant (s) / 1,000 population (2013's.) Portugal 2.82 migrant (s) / 1,000 population (2013's.) United Kingdom 2.57 migrant (s) / 1,000 population (2013's.) Ireland 2.51 migrant (s) / 1,000 population (2013's.) Greece 2.32 migrant (s) / 1,000 population (2013's.) Netherlands 1.99 migrant (s) / 1,000 population (2013's.) Russia 1.69 migrant (s) / 1,000 population (2013's.) Sweden 1.64 migrant (s) / 1,000 population (2013's.) Hungary 1.36 migrant (s) / 1,000 population (2013's.) Poland -0.47 Migrant (s) / 1,000 population (2013's.)
All those foreigners didn't built up Switzerland's economy, because Switzerland was already built up by the time the flooding of foreigners started.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sentry21
...and sacrifice it all for the sake of nationalism.
Seems to me that you are one of those people that like to pretend as if culture, national identity, history of a conglomerate of people are simply not important things, which explains why you so freely invent stuff about the Swiss and completely ignore other stuff about them in order to push your agenda.
At the end of the day, you are not Swiss and its not your country that is flooding with foreigners at the rate Switzerland is, plus you obviously have no clue about how they became a rich and highly developed country before all the massive immigration wave started. As such, you have no clue.
And before you go pointing fingers at me, I'm not Swiss either and I don't know any Swiss, its not a country that particularly attracts me in anyway; but I do keep my feet firmly planted on the ground by judging their situation with actual current and historical data. Unlike others, I don't have an agenda, unless searching for the truth is considered an agenda. Because of this, I am perfectly capable of noticing that the Swiss have reason to worry and they should act in the way they see fit, regardless what the rest of Europe thinks of them. At the end of the day, no one knows what its like to be a Swiss in Switzerland right now, with its massive immigration inflow, as the Swiss do.
Hmmm...
While I am not that naive to think that it were all those immigrants that " build Switzerland up to where it is now," -( it was a wealthy country to begin with ( and that's why it attracted so many immigrants I'd guess,)) but I was not aware that it had so many immigrants comparably to Austria/Germany/France.
On a second thought - Switzerland has been always known for its banking system ( that's where traditionally a lot of "rich and famous" - or rather those, who didn't want to be "famous" in this respect ) kept their money.
Now looking at London, that attracted a great number of immigrants/investors in their real estate since about 70% of Gr. Br. GDP is all about "financial services" I'd think that it's the same reason why so many immigrants flocked to Switzerland; because of its banking, it's money-making hub.
The difference is, however, that London doesn't seem to be too concerned about the changes, while the Swiss clearly are.
The difference is, however, that London doesn't seem to be too concerned about the changes, while the Swiss clearly are.
And that is the gist of everything here. The Swiss are worried and all data points that they have a point in being worried, so they should do what they can to lessen their worry.
Londoners are not worried and as such, they can continue as they have been doing thus far.
My basic motto is that the happiness of a people should be above everything else, especially when it comes to people in their own country. It would had been one thing if the Swiss didn't mind the great changes their country is going through, but they do mind, and with much reason, and the rest of Europe needs to understand that.
The problem with your point of view is that you are making plenty of assumptions with not much base to them. Lets take the part I quoted from your pre-previous post as a perfect example.
First of all, Switzerland has an extremely high immigration rate (read the second part of this post) which puts into question your notion that the 35% of foreigners in Switzerland were there "from the beginning." Much, if not most, of those foreigners are relatively recent arrivals because Switzerland didn't always had such a high immigration rate.
Secondly, Switzerland is NOT the wealthiest country in Europe, which further adds evidence to the fact that you are simply inventing stuff about this country for the sole reason you don't like their decision to tighten their border. This is understandable since you have said you are not Swiss, especially when we consider that very few countries, not just in Europe but also worldwide, can even remotely know what it feels like to have one's country flooded with foreigners rather quickly because not many countries have as high, or higher, of a migration flow as the Swiss do. The richest country in Europe is Norway ($55,400) and they are not as flooding with foreigners as the Swiss are.
Thirdly, Switzerland has been a wealthy country since before the immigration boom started, as can be seen in this chart:
They did it before without being massively flooded with foreigners and with tighter border controls in terms of migration, money flows, and all other types of flows between Switzerland and every other country on earth, including the rest of the Europe. There is no reason they will not be able to do the same again.
I think it may be hard for some people to understand the Swiss because not many countries are being flooded with foreigners.
Switzerland 6.14 migrant (s) / 1,000 population (2013's.)
Compare that to its immediate neighbors:
Italy 4.47 migrant (s) / 1,000 population (2013's.) Lietchtenstein 4.35 migrant (s) / 1,000 population (2013's.) Austria 1.78 migrant (s) / 1,000 population (2013's.) France 1.1 migrant (s) / 1,000 population (2013's.) Germany 0.89 migrant (s) / 1,000 population (2013's.)
And to other nations:
Spain 6.14 migrant (s) / 1,000 population (2013's.) United States 3.64 migrant (s) / 1,000 population (2013's.) Portugal 2.82 migrant (s) / 1,000 population (2013's.) United Kingdom 2.57 migrant (s) / 1,000 population (2013's.) Ireland 2.51 migrant (s) / 1,000 population (2013's.) Greece 2.32 migrant (s) / 1,000 population (2013's.) Netherlands 1.99 migrant (s) / 1,000 population (2013's.) Russia 1.69 migrant (s) / 1,000 population (2013's.) Sweden 1.64 migrant (s) / 1,000 population (2013's.) Hungary 1.36 migrant (s) / 1,000 population (2013's.) Poland -0.47 Migrant (s) / 1,000 population (2013's.)
All those foreigners didn't built up Switzerland's economy, because Switzerland was already built up by the time the flooding of foreigners started.
Seems to me that you are one of those people that like to pretend as if culture, national identity, history of a conglomerate of people are simply not important things, which explains why you so freely invent stuff about the Swiss and completely ignore other stuff about them in order to push your agenda.
At the end of the day, you are not Swiss and its not your country that is flooding with foreigners at the rate Switzerland is, plus you obviously have no clue about how they became a rich and highly developed country before all the massive immigration wave started. As such, you have no clue.
And before you go pointing fingers at me, I'm not Swiss either and I don't know any Swiss, its not a country that particularly attracts me in anyway; but I do keep my feet firmly planted on the ground by judging their situation with actual current and historical data. Unlike others, I don't have an agenda, unless searching for the truth is considered an agenda. Because of this, I am perfectly capable of noticing that the Swiss have reason to worry and they should act in the way they see fit, regardless what the rest of Europe thinks of them. At the end of the day, no one knows what its like to be a Swiss in Switzerland right now, with its massive immigration inflow, as the Swiss do.
the massive immigration boom started in the 1950s. actually.
Secondly it is ONE of the wealthiest nations in Europe. and you're trying to compare a nation thats economy has been built up through its vast amount of natural resources and comparing it to a service based economy . immigration is only one factor that affects an economy. it will effect some countries more than others. a country that has many companies based in it will need its fair share of lawyers and accountants. switzerland also has a big pharmaceutical industry too which means they'd also need a fair amount of specialist scientists. a country that is rich in natural resources OBVIOUSLY won't need immigrant with the same skill set as the ones in switzerland.
like i said, immigration is only one factor. what about the free trade agreement with the EU ? thats going down the toilet as soon as EU starts doing something about it and that is obviously going to cause a whole new world of problems since 50% of its exports are to EU countries.
i don't disregard culture, national identity or history. i just think its BS that people think that they'll lose their culture, national identity or history through immigration. all the foreigners that live in switzerland (not just to work) would represent switzerland with pride, as would their children. i mean you just have to watch their national football team which consists of turkish, bosnian, cape verdian, albanian, croatian, italian, german, spanish, chilean all of which take pride in playing for switzerland. i am all for patriotism, however i am totally against nationalism. the whole concept of curtain group of people, or citizens of a nation, being superior to others and in deserving of better treatment is pure xenophobic BS.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AntonioR
And that is the gist of everything here. The Swiss are worried and all data points that they have a point in being worried, so they should do what they can to lessen their worry.
Londoners are not worried and as such, they can continue as they have been doing thus far.
My basic motto is that the happiness of a people should be above everything else, especially when it comes to people in their own country. It would had been one thing if the Swiss didn't mind the great changes their country is going through, but they do mind, and with much reason, and the rest of Europe needs to understand that.
peoples happiness should be above everything, i agree, but the majority vote was 50.3%. 49.7 of swiss people will be unhappy. i don't think the average swiss voter who voted in the 50.3% did any research before voting, otherwise they would have known its not as simple as closing borders and everything being all rosy. after they face the consequences i think a vast majority of the 50.3% would be unhappy too. anyways, like i said, i don't really care what happens to them. i just find their situation as quite baffling is all. i expected better from one of europe's most wealthiest, most prosperous nations.
Last edited by sentry12; 02-18-2014 at 10:07 PM..
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) kept their money.
. immigration is only one factor that affects an economy. it will effect some countries more than others. a country that has many companies based in it will need its fair share of lawyers and accountants. switzerland also has a big pharmaceutical industry too which means they'd also need a fair amount of specialist scientists. a country that is rich in natural resources OBVIOUSLY won't need immigrant with the same skill set as the ones in switzerland.
