No cherry-picking’: EU slams Switzerland after anti-immigration vote (Swiss, foreigners, immigrants)

[erasure]

Originally Posted by sentry12

i don't disregard culture, national identity or history. i just think its BS that people think that they'll lose their culture, national identity or history through immigration.

It depends how much immigration. Granted, each nation has certain amount of foreigners - it's good and healthy, because they bring something different, some positive variety that's not destructive to the nation and can be easily absorbed. Yet when the newcomers start being overwhelming in numbers - how can they NOT change the local culture and NOT affect the national identity? I'm sorry, but when I am coming to Switzerland, I want to see Switzerland and I want to see the native Swiss people - whoever they are originally ( French, German, Italians or what's not,) because they are the ones that founded and kept alive what's known as "Switzerland" and "Swiss culture." I might find them boring, uninspiring - but that's what I want to see when I come to Bern, not some "multiculturalism," and streets full of Poles or Russians or Indians. If I want to see Indians, I go to India, if I want to see Russians, I go to Russia. I believe that the Swiss are entitled to decide how much change in this respect they are willing to accept and if they want to keep on sitting there making their chocolate and coo-koo clocks instead of becoming "vibrant, multicultural nation" - they should have that right.

all the foreigners that live in switzerland (not just to work) would represent switzerland with pride, as would their children.

Simple question - why all these foreigners living in Switzerland don't want proudly represent the lands where they are originally from, together with their children?

I have this very question for Russians for example who "brought their skills to Great Britain"; I am sure they've brought their "indispensable skills" in Switzerland too, together with stolen money that is.
I don't know, may be multiculturalism is a good idea, just not when it has money-oriented basis for it.
These money ( made on hapless compatriots) are becoming then a "license to join the European club" because Western Europe IS a club, whether one likes it or not.

i mean you just have to watch their national football team which consists of turkish, bosnian, cape verdian, albanian, croatian, italian, german, spanish, chilean all of which take pride in playing for switzerland.

Sure, players can be purchased from different countries, but sport is losing its essence, becoming more and more commercialized.

i am all for patriotism, however i am totally against nationalism. the whole concept of curtain group of people, or citizens of a nation, being superior to others and in deserving of better treatment is pure xenophobic BS.

This particular phrase is worthy of Russia and typical for Russians, but Russia IS an empire, that willingly included different lands with different inhabitants. So for a Russian being a patriot of his/her country with all its lands and people is a good thing, vs being a nationalist - i.e. praising ethnic Russians above all.
The Swiss however were sitting for centuries in their Alps ( or wherever they were sitting with their coo-koo clocks,) and I don't think that they even participated in all those European wars ( did they ever have army I wonder ) so why should they accept all the immigrants in "patriotic" context?

peoples happiness should be above everything, i agree, but the majority vote was 50.3%. 49.7 of swiss people will be unhappy.

Well do you have the exact numbers - how many of these "unhappy people" are the native Swiss, and how many are immigrants?

[AntonioR]

Originally Posted by sentry12

Firstly File:Switzerland, permanent foreign residents as % of total population, 1900-2011.png - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

the massive immigration boom started in the 1950s. actually.

The graph clearly shows that the massive immigration is a recent phenomenon. Between 1950 and 1980 the foreign population as a percentage of the total population grew by 8 percentage points, averaging a growth of 0.27 percentage points for each of the 30 years. While the migration boom starting in 1990 to today (25% of the population) amounts to an average growth of 0.47 percentage points per year, double than during the previous 'boom.' And the foreign population has never been as high as it is right now as a share of the total population.

Originally Posted by sentry12

Secondly it is ONE of the wealthiest nations in Europe.

You said it was the wealthiest one and I prove you wrong. No need to change the words.

Originally Posted by sentry12

and you're trying to compare a nation thats economy has been built up through its vast amount of natural resources and comparing it to a service based economy .

Who in their right mind debates with someone on City-Data without first glancing their profile?

Originally Posted by sentry12

immigration is only one factor that affects an economy. it will effect some countries more than others. a country that has many companies based in it will need its fair share of lawyers and accountants. switzerland also has a big pharmaceutical industry too which means they'd also need a fair amount of specialist scientists. a country that is rich in natural resources OBVIOUSLY won't need immigrant with the same skill set as the ones in switzerland.

This has absolutely nothing to do with the topic.

Originally Posted by sentry12

what about the free trade agreement with the EU ? thats going down the toilet as soon as EU starts doing something about it and that is obviously going to cause a whole new world of problems since 50% of its exports are to EU countries.

Let me re-quote myself from my previous response to you:

"They did it before without being massively flooded with foreigners and with tighter border controls in terms of migration, money flows, and all other types of flows between Switzerland and every other country on earth, including the rest of the Europe. There is no reason they will not be able to do the same again."

Originally Posted by sentry12

i don't disregard culture, national identity or history.

You certainly do, every time you blame this on 'nationalism' is exactly what you are doing to imply that a sense of national identity is worthless.

Originally Posted by sentry12

i just think its BS that people think that they'll lose their culture, national identity or history through immigration.

There you go again, completely disregarding culture, national identity, and history.

Originally Posted by sentry12

all the foreigners that live in switzerland (not just to work) would represent switzerland with pride, as would their children. i mean you just have to watch their national football team which consists of turkish, bosnian, cape verdian, albanian, croatian, italian, german, spanish, chilean all of which take pride in playing for switzerland.

This doesn't even makes sense! Football teams often recruit people from faraway countries based on their skills, its not representative of anything about the country they play for or even of the foreigners in the country they play for. What a joke!

Also, foreigners taking Swiss nationality is quite low even by European standards.

Originally Posted by sentry12

i am all for patriotism, however i am totally against nationalism. the whole concept of curtain group of people, or citizens of a nation, being superior to others and in deserving of better treatment is pure xenophobic BS.

There you go again throwing mud at national identity. I think that the only thing keeping you from using the race card is the fact that most foreigners in Switzerland are white, if not it would had the been the very first thing you would had typed. Actually, it seems you are using the nationalism label in lieu of the racism label, completely ignoring the huge impact the massive recent immigration into Switzerland is having on the natives. Never in the history of that country has the foreign population grown so fast and has made up such a large proportion of its population than right now. I'm willing to bet your very own country isn't suffering on a nationwide scale the immigration issue that has so many Swiss worrying. Only the Spaniards know how that feels and the reason for this is in my previous response to you.

Originally Posted by sentry12

peoples happiness should be above everything, i agree

If you agree, then this debate would had never come into existence!

Originally Posted by sentry12

...but the majority vote was 50.3%. 49.7 of swiss people will be unhappy.

A large portion of the people that voted against this are not people with a sure mindset regarding this issue. Only 18% of the Swiss tend to be completely sure of their stance against this measure, the remaining majority is either sure of it or unsure and the unsure vote can't be considered as definitive. The one thing that is certain is that Switzerland has a history of voting in favor of things that they know will benefit their country and against those that will harm it. This is not a country full of dumb people, they know what they are doing.

Originally Posted by sentry12

i don't think the average swiss voter who voted in the 50.3% did any research before voting, otherwise they would have known its not as simple as closing borders and everything being all rosy.

One of the most educated populations in the world and now you want to paint them as brutes simply because the majority decided in a way that you wouldn't have, even though you don't know what its like to be in a country flooded with immigrants to the degree that Switzerland is. SMH

Originally Posted by sentry12

after they face the consequences i think a vast majority of the 50.3% would be unhappy too.

I guess I have to re-quote myself once again!

"They did it before without being massively flooded with foreigners and with tighter border controls in terms of migration, money flows, and all other types of flows between Switzerland and every other country on earth, including the rest of the Europe. There is no reason they will not be able to do the same again."

Originally Posted by sentry12

anyways, like i said, i don't really care what happens to them.

Of course you don't, that has been obvious from the beginning of this debate. You don't care about their national identity, about their culture, about their country; you don't care about them. All you care about is your opinion on this matter, which you can't comprehend at all because your country is not in a situation even remotely similar to that of Switzerland regarding the rapid growth and the immense size of the foreign population as a percentage of the national population. You don't know what its like to be in the shoes of the Swiss and don't care to know despite all the data clearly pointing towards a simple fact: the Swiss have reason to worry.

Originally Posted by sentry12

i just find their situation as quite baffling is all. i expected better from one of europe's most wealthiest, most prosperous nations.

They know what they are doing, simply accept it. This is not a country of dumb or uneducated people. They know how to do things better than most people, their history is a testament to that. Its part of their culture, a culture they don't want to be diluted with the fast and ever growing weight of foreigners in their country.

Lee Kuan Yew, the guy responsible for the massive transformation of Singapore from a 3rd world backwater to one of the richest countries on earth in a generation (richer than Switzerland), said it best:

Lee Kuan Yew: "What is best is to see Singapore continue to thrive and to prosper and that you don't lose yourself, and you have migrants overwhelming the local population. We haven't got that here, today the migrants are only 30% and I think we should never allow them to become near 50%; [because] then they will change us, we want them to become [like us]."

Charlie Rose: How do you make sure they never make up 50%?

Kuan Yew: "Just make sure the numbers are kept down."

Charlie Rose: How do you do that? Immigration restriction?

Kuan Yew: "Yes"

From 41:02 to about 42:00 in this video: Charlie Rose | charlierose.com

He took a third world backwater in the 1960's and turned it into a first world country, one of the envy of Asia, by the 1980's. He certainly would know a thing or two about what's best for a country, especially concerning with the immigration issue.

You don't.

[sentry12]

Originally Posted by AntonioR

The graph clearly shows that the massive immigration is a recent phenomenon. Between 1950 and 1980 the foreign population as a percentage of the total population grew by 8 percentage points, averaging a growth of 0.27 percentage points for each of the 30 years. While the migration boom starting in 1990 to today (25% of the population) amounts to an average growth of 0.47 percentage points per year, double than during the previous 'boom.' And the foreign population has never been as high as it is right now as a share of the total population.

yes. but the boom didn't start in 1990. it started in 1950 and it simply tapered off during the 1980s and the start going back up.

Originally Posted by AntonioR

You said it was the wealthiest one and I prove you wrong. No need to change the words.

you spotted a typo. congratulations

Originally Posted by AntonioR

This has absolutely nothing to do with the topic.

erm, it has everything to do with the topic of IMMIGRATION and ECONOMICS of it. is this how you have a debate, simply refuse to believe it matters when you can't think of response..

Originally Posted by AntonioR

Let me re-quote myself from my previous response to you:

"They did it before without being massively flooded with foreigners and with tighter border controls in terms of migration, money flows, and all other types of flows between Switzerland and every other country on earth, including the rest of the Europe. There is no reason they will not be able to do the same again."

i never said they will never do it again, maybe a few decades time and not without struggle. one does not simply have a immigration reliant economy, take immigration out and then expect it to be all rosy.

Originally Posted by AntonioR

You certainly do, every time you blame this on 'nationalism' is exactly what you are doing to imply that a sense of national identity is worthless.

ermm, there is a difference between have a sense of national identity and 'nationalism'. you keep thinking having a sense of national identity is the same as 'nationalism'. one is by-word for patriotism, the other is a by-word for xenophobia ie superiority over others.

Originally Posted by AntonioR

There you go again, completely disregarding culture, national identity, and history.

NO, there YOU go again, not having a decent comeback, so you simply dismiss it as wrong with NO arguement !. great debate we're having here.

Originally Posted by AntonioR

This doesn't even makes sense! Football teams often recruit people from faraway countries based on their skills, its not representative of anything about the country they play for or even of the foreigners in the country they play for. What a joke!

LOL do you have any idea what you're talking about ?? those that represent the swiss football team migrated to switzerland before they were old enough to speak. they lived their whole childhood and teenage life in switzerland but they are still not swiss enough to represent switzerland ? haha, you are starting to sound like you don't have a CLUE. you're pulling stuff out of your a** now.

Originally Posted by AntonioR

Also, foreigners taking Swiss nationality is quite low even by European standards.

its fine when they took US citizenship, but swiss ? NOOO. the swiss are a homogenous nation consisting of ethnic swiss who have their own language too.. oh wait, that might be wrong.

Originally Posted by AntonioR

There you go again throwing mud at national identity. I think that the only thing keeping you from using the race card is the fact that most foreigners in Switzerland are white, if not it would had the been the very first thing you would had typed. Actually, it seems you are using the nationalism label in lieu of the racism label, completely ignoring the huge impact the massive recent immigration into Switzerland is having on the natives. Never in the history of that country has the foreign population grown so fast and has made up such a large proportion of its population than right now. I'm willing to bet your very own country isn't suffering on a nationwide scale the immigration issue that has so many Swiss worrying. Only the Spaniards know how that feels and the reason for this is in my previous response to you.

what are you on about ? when did race come into this ? i said xenophobia.. give me strength. do you know what xenophobia is ? xenophobia is an intense or irrational dislike or fear of people from other countries or foreigners. racism is the belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others. spot the difference.

Originally Posted by AntonioR

A large portion of the people that voted against this are not people with a sure mindset regarding this issue. Only 18% of the Swiss tend to be completely sure of their stance against this measure, the remaining majority is either sure of it or unsure and the unsure vote can't be considered as definitive. The one thing that is certain is that Switzerland has a history of voting in favor of things that they know will benefit their country and against those that will harm it. This is not a country full of dumb people, they know what they are doing.

Originally Posted by AntonioR

One of the most educated populations in the world and now you want to paint them as brutes simply because the majority decided in a way that you wouldn't have, even though you don't know what its like to be in a country flooded with immigrants to the degree that Switzerland is. SMH

their not dumb people. and they are very educated. but that doesn't mean s*** because an educated person today is a person has a degree in something like law, or psychology. it still won't stop them from having nationalist tendencies.

Originally Posted by AntonioR

Of course you don't, that has been obvious from the beginning of this debate. You don't care about their national identity, about their culture, about their country; you don't care about them. All you care about is your opinion on this matter, which you can't comprehend at all because your country is not in a situation even remotely similar to that of Switzerland regarding the rapid growth and the immense size of the foreign population as a percentage of the national population. You don't know what its like to be in the shoes of the Swiss and don't care to know despite all the data clearly pointing towards a simple fact: the Swiss have reason to worry.

they may be well educated but it seems like they don't teach them history at school. you're saying i don't care about their culture when they completely disregard the fact that almost all of switzerland is of German, French or Italian descent. the fact they had open borders to neighboring countries for decades. nationalism is recent phenomenon in switzerland, and is probably as anti-swiss as it gets. they've already lost their culture/history because there was no swiss nationalism in swiss history, swiss nationalism has never been in swiss culture.

Originally Posted by AntonioR

They know what they are doing, simply accept it. This is not a country of dumb or uneducated people. They know how to do things better than most people, their history is a testament to that. Its part of their culture, a culture they don't want to be diluted with the fast and ever growing weight of foreigners in their country.

Originally Posted by AntonioR

Lee Kuan Yew, the guy responsible for the massive transformation of Singapore from a 3rd world backwater to one of the richest countries on earth in a generation (richer than Switzerland), said it best:

Lee Kuan Yew: "What is best is to see Singapore continue to thrive and to prosper and that you don't lose yourself, and you have migrants overwhelming the local population. We haven't got that here, today the migrants are only 30% and I think we should never allow them to become near 50%; [because] then they will change us, we want them to become [like us]."

Charlie Rose: How do you make sure they never make up 50%?

Kuan Yew: "Just make sure the numbers are kept down."

Charlie Rose: How do you do that? Immigration restriction?

Kuan Yew: "Yes"

From 41:02 to about 42:00 in this video: Charlie Rose | charlierose.com

He took a third world backwater in the 1960's and turned it into a first world country, one of the envy of Asia, by the 1980's. He certainly would know a thing or two about what's best for a country, especially concerning with the immigration issue.

You don't.

he kept migrants at 30% by restricting immigration.. genius. *clap* *clap* *clap*

you bring up singapore.. lets bring up a more popular immigrant country.. USA. when the USA gained independence from the british empire, it was a war torn pile a mess. its economy was almost non-existent however after its independence and on its road to becoming the most powerful nation, it took in european immigrants at the rate of 30% a decade.. not 1% a year, or 10% a decade like switzerland are scared s***less about today.. more than 3 times as much. what was the result ? the USA became so powerful that at one point, its gdp was 38% of the worlds. the world despised americans because they were so rich and arrogant. thats where the term 'ugly american' came from.

[AntonioR]

Originally Posted by sentry12

yes. but the boom didn't start in 1990. it started in 1950 and it simply tapered off during the 1980s and the start going back up.

Ha ha ha! Unbelievable to deny something that is clearly visible in the graph. Unbelievable!

Originally Posted by sentry12

you spotted a typo. congratulations

That right there is another LIE!

Originally Posted by sentry12

erm, it has everything to do with the topic of IMMIGRATION and ECONOMICS of it. is this how you have a debate, simply refuse to believe it matters when you can't think of response..

Of course immigration affects economics and the Swiss know that, that is why they voted the way they did; but what you said in the other post has nothing to do with the Swiss!

Originally Posted by sentry12

i never said they will never do it again, maybe a few decades time and not without struggle. one does not simply have a immigration reliant economy, take immigration out and then expect it to be all rosy.

Another LIE!

Originally Posted by sentry12

ermm, there is a difference between have a sense of national identity and 'nationalism'. you keep thinking having a sense of national identity is the same as 'nationalism'. one is by-word for patriotism, the other is a by-word for xenophobia ie superiority over others.

Ha ha ha! This part I'll call REFERENCE 1, soon enough you'll see why.

Originally Posted by sentry12

NO, there YOU go again, not having a decent comeback, so you simply dismiss it as wrong with NO arguement !. great debate we're having here.

A person that said doesn't care about the Swiss or their country shouldn't be projecting when called out on it! You don't care about their identity, you said it yourself already.

Originally Posted by sentry12

LOL do you have any idea what you're talking about ?? those that represent the swiss football team migrated to switzerland before they were old enough to speak. they lived their whole childhood and teenage life in switzerland but they are still not swiss enough to represent switzerland ? haha, you are starting to sound like you don't have a CLUE. you're pulling stuff out of your a** now.

They are not Swiss, you said it yourself. If they migrated, they are not from there! And what type of person uses sports teams as a valid point for anything serious? SMH

Originally Posted by sentry12

its fine when they took US citizenship, but swiss ? NOOO. the swiss are a homogenous nation consisting of ethnic swiss who have their own language too.. oh wait, that might be wrong.

Another perfect example that you don't care for the Swiss, their culture, or national identity; precisely the things the Swiss do care about.

Originally Posted by sentry12

what are you on about ? when did race come into this ? i said xenophobia.. give me strength. do you know what xenophobia is ? xenophobia is an intense or irrational dislike or fear of people from other countries or foreigners. racism is the belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others. spot the difference.

Oh! Time to go back and read what you said in REFERENCE 1! Unbelievable!

Like I said before, you don't care about the Swiss or Switzerland, all you care about is your opinion and you are willing to do anything in order to win an argument.

Originally Posted by sentry12

their not dumb people. and they are very educated. but that doesn't mean s*** because an educated person today is a person has a degree in something like law, or psychology. it still won't stop them from having nationalist tendencies.

Of course you are now downplaying their education, because it doesn't supports your opinion. Your constant rambling of how can a country "so rich" make a decision like this is akin to making a reference to their education and intelligence level, because bad education and low intelligence doesn't makes a country rich. SMH

Originally Posted by sentry12

they may be well educated but it seems like they don't teach them history at school.

Ha ha ha, this is so pathetic.

Originally Posted by sentry12

you're saying i don't care about their culture

You said it yourself, remember the "I don't care about the Swiss or what happens to their country" comment? It can't be any clearer than that!

Originally Posted by sentry12

when they completely disregard the fact that almost all of switzerland is of German, French or Italian descent.

They certainly didn't disregard that most of those German, French, and Italian descendants already lived there when Switzerland came into existence a long time ago.

Originally Posted by sentry12

the fact they had open borders to neighboring countries for decades.

In what sane mind is 12 years "decades"? Unbelievable!

Originally Posted by sentry12

he kept migrants at 30% by restricting immigration.. genius. *clap* *clap* *clap*

you bring up singapore.. lets bring up a more popular immigrant country.. USA. when the USA gained independence from the british empire, it was a war torn pile a mess. its economy was almost non-existent however after its independence and on its road to becoming the most powerful nation, it took in european immigrants at the rate of 30% a decade.. not 1% a year, or 10% a decade like switzerland are scared s***less about today.. more than 3 times as much. what was the result ? the USA became so powerful that at one point, its gdp was 38% of the worlds. the world despised americans because they were so rich and arrogant. thats where the term 'ugly american' came from.

I bring up Singapore because it is an excellent example of a society that knows how to become rich and give its population an ever growing standards of living. That is NOT the case with the USA anymore. Care to explain why real wages in the USA have been DECLINING since the 1970's? Real wages today are lower than in 1978! That's not the case in Singapore!

I said it before and I will say it again: you have not clue, you don't care about the Swiss, you don't care about their culture; and most important of all is that all you care about is winning an argument at all costs when its obvious you have lost.

Anyway, I'm done here. There is nothing worst than debating with a person that constantly lies and contradicts himself, using one definition when it suits his argument and another when it doesn't.

The Swiss know exactly what they are doing and no one cares more for their country than they do, their voting history is a testament to that.

[viribusunitis]

Originally Posted by AntonioR

The Swiss know exactly what they are doing and no one cares more for their country than they do, their voting history is a testament to that.

Actually, I really doubt that this time. Only 16% of the Swiss answered "Yes" when asked, if they want the Bilateral Agreements to be terminated. That survey was done a couple of days ago. Yet, a majority of 51% voted to cancel them when they asked basically the same question in a different way on the day of the initiative.

Plus, one could argue that no other initiative was that important. Just look at the list of initiatives that got adopted...

[sentry12]

Originally Posted by AntonioR

Ha ha ha! Unbelievable to deny something that is clearly visible in the graph. Unbelievable!

LOL, are you blind ? can you not see the line go UP SHARPLY after the 1950s ?

Originally Posted by AntonioR

Of course immigration affects economics and the Swiss know that, that is why they voted the way they did; but what you said in the other post has nothing to do with the Swiss!

yeh, ofcourse because ALL the swiss people fully educated in economics. it had everything to do with the fact the a serviced based economy is more reliant on immigrants than a natural resources based economy.

Originally Posted by AntonioR

Another LIE!

quote me.

Originally Posted by AntonioR

Ha ha ha! This part I'll call REFERENCE 1, soon enough you'll see why.

okay

Originally Posted by AntonioR

A person that said doesn't care about the Swiss or their country shouldn't be projecting when called out on it! You don't care about their identity, you said it yourself already.

i do not care. i'm just confused ...that the 50.3% of the swiss that voted care even about swiss history less than me.

Originally Posted by AntonioR

They are not Swiss, you said it yourself. If they migrated, they are not from there! And what type of person uses sports teams as a valid point for anything serious? SMH

so you have to be born within a line drawn on map to be considered "from there", regardless of whether you've been living there for pretty much all your life and pretty much live and breath that country ? you really are nit picking.. you're struggling mate.

Originally Posted by AntonioR

Another perfect example that you don't care for the Swiss, their culture, or national identity; precisely the things the Swiss do care about.

do you even know what their culture is ? have you researched their history ? i'm guessing not.

Originally Posted by AntonioR

Oh! Time to go back and read what you said in REFERENCE 1! Unbelievable!

Xenophobia = your nation citizens are superior to OTHERS.. Racism = a PARTICULAR RACE is superior to other .. why is this so hard for you ? .. this debate, like you said, is dying, if not is already dead. and you're killing it reply by reply. same s***, no arguements.

Originally Posted by AntonioR

Of course you are now downplaying their education, because it doesn't supports your opinion. Your constant rambling of how can a country "so rich" make a decision like this is akin to making a reference to their education and intelligence level, because bad education and low intelligence doesn't makes a country rich. SMH

yeh, used to think that it being a rich and wealthy country, ALL of the swiss would have been taught how they became so well off, the history and economics but it turns out 50.3% didn't quite get it. a similar thing has happened in the USA, the constitution is preached to every generation in the US but it has been almost completely disregarded.. that kinda explain the mess it is in right now.

Originally Posted by AntonioR

You said it yourself, remember the "I don't care about the Swiss or what happens to their country" comment? It can't be any clearer than that!

why should i care ? it doesn't affect me. i'm sitting behind a laptop in the UK. this is nothing more than a case study for me.. i'm just stating the consequences of their vote from an economical point of view, and you come attacking me saying i don't care about their history, or culture or whatever, all of which, without actually studying their culture, history.. which is a testament to immigration.

Originally Posted by AntonioR

They certainly didn't disregard that most of those German, French, and Italian descendants already lived there when Switzerland came into existence a long time ago.

they've been coming for decades.. they've had open borders to them ever since it became a federal nation in the late 1800s. immigration slowed down during the world wars for obvious reason but again picked up again after the war. this has been the history of Federal Switzerland.

Originally Posted by AntonioR

In what sane mind is 12 years "decades"? Unbelievable!

and here i thought i was debating someone who actually did SOME research. no words

Originally Posted by AntonioR

I bring up Singapore because it is an excellent example of a society that knows how to become rich and give its population an ever growing standards of living. That is NOT the case with the USA anymore. Care to explain why real wages in the USA have been DECLINING since the 1970's? Real wages today are lower than in 1978! That's not the case in Singapore!

I said it before and I will say it again: you have not clue, you don't care about the Swiss, you don't care about their culture; and most important of all is that all you care about is winning an argument at all costs when its obvious you have lost.

Anyway, I'm done here. There is nothing worst than debating with a person that constantly lies and contradicts himself, using one definition when it suits his argument and another when it doesn't.

The Swiss know exactly what they are doing and no one cares more for their country than they do, their voting history is a testament to that.

the USA isn't the same anymore, not by a long shot.. singapore will NEVER be anywhere NEAR what USA was at the time, even by per capita basis, inflation adjusted ofcourse. the times when USA was free, and taking in immigrants at the rate it was.. from the years it gained independence, its economy grew from a modern day poor african country to a modern day USA, China and Japan combined.. despite going through several wars.

you're right.. you can't debate someone that doesn't do an OUNCE of proper research. i have no time for lazy debates.

you CLAIM to know alot about swiss voting "history".. after doing no research. cool story bro.

[Daywalk]

500 million vs 8 million...

[travric]

Because of this, I am perfectly capable of noticing that the Swiss have reason to worry and they should act in the way they see fit, regardless what the rest of Europe thinks of them. At the end of the day, no one knows what its like to be a Swiss in Switzerland right now, with its massive immigration inflow, as the Swiss do.

As for the Swiss, I always thought of them as quite a deliberative, analytical peope and they have always offered immigrants a place to stay in their country. Question is and I can't tell 100% but how far has the SVP gone in re-shaping attitdues to immigration policy in Switzerland? It's no secret that far-right parties in Europe are on the ascendance. I don't think the Swiss are immune. It's almost a if Switzerland wants to inoculate itself in some way after looking around them and seeing the upheavals immigration can do to countries. From the looks of it, I'd say the SVP looks like it has been getting to use it injections.

[njusa2013]

Somebody wrote:
" Good for the Swiss. To hell with the EU!"

Let me tell you, if it weren't the TAX PARADISE of Europe (and the world practically) the Swiss would be dairy farming rather than asset managing. Actually as NEUTRAL as Switzerland is the truth is Switzerland became what it is today AIDING and ABETTING TAX EVADERS THE WORLD OVER FROM PAYING THEIR FARE SHARE IN THEIR COUNTRY OF RESIDENCE. Most of which comes from their neighboring EU countries. Plus there are thousands of "Frontalieri" or Europeans who live in bordering EU countries and have been working legally in Switzerland for years enriching it now they want to close the doors to them, that's nice really very neighborly Switzerland!!!
Lastly, I'm not trying to pick on Switzerland (I indeed like it) but another true and scandalous thing about our so called NEUTRAL friend is this. Apart helping tax evaders, Switzerland also held/holds bank accounts of some of the worlds most brutal dictators which lets face it "their money" was money which was stollen out of that dictators impoverished country. For instance this was an actual headline from February 25, 2011....

Switzerland froze the assets of Libya strongman Muammar Qaddafi and 26 other people from his entourage, less than two weeks after freezing assets belonging to Egypt's Hosni Mubarak.

I mean common, these ruthless DICTATORS were sending the wealth out of their respective countries to Switzerland meanwhile the average worker in both Libya and Egypt was/is earning $3 a day. Really Switzerland NEUTRAL ????? I'm not saying anything but if lets say a financial institution were to aid a CEO in EMBEZZLING major funds from that CEO'S company don't you think both the CEO and Financial Institution's asses would be toast??? And to think Qaddafi had something like 80 billion dollars socked away making him what would have been the the RICHEST man on earth all while keeping tens of millions of his countrymen impoverished!
Anyway SHAME ON YOU SWITZERLAND!!!!!!
If you close the door to the EU the EU should close the door on you so continue to pay 7 francs for a liter of milk instead of crossing over into Italy or France or Germany and paying less than 1 franc for it (this is true for ALL food and consumer goods in Switzerland).

[botticelli]

Originally Posted by Daywalk

500 million vs 8 million...

since when the US added 200 million new people?