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Yes, because you think people jsut should suffer because of your blind hate towards Russia, of course, sounds legit.
Ukraine has not offered anything to its people for over two decades, this revolt against a fairly elected president was the straw that broke the camel's back; you cannot ever accept that in fact, people rather have a better quality of life, and Russia can offer that.
Of course you being in Estonia, you have been brainwashed from birth regarding Russia, and are obtuse to any facts that get in the way, to the point of stating obsurd statements like the one quoted above.
What I meant was: the people in Ukraine will suffer one way or another. If they choose to partner-up with Russia more closely, the suffering will continue for quiet a time, without having much prospect for future prosperity. Don't try to tell otherwise. With the EU, the chances of bettering quality of life are much more realistic.
But that's just an opinion of a brainwashed Estonian.
Even the US, has people complain about wealth inequality (you can Google the numerous articles and even threads here on this forum); basically where ever in the world one person has more than another, someone will complain.
And wealth inequality being meaningless in this scenario has nothing to do with the corruption going on in Russia, a different subject with legitimate complaints.
There's no debating the fact that people complain about perceived inequality around the world. However, the causes of wealth inequality in Russia and the USA are distinct from one another. It is precisely direct corruption which has caused this great gulf in wealth in Russia. Certainly there is corruption in the US system, but I posit that few would argue that it is corruption that has caused wealth inequality. Besides, as the research I posted illustrates, the situation is heightened in Russia.
Again, if you think that wealth inequality is 'meaningless', then why did I hear Russians complain about the oligarchs who stole "their money", pretty much on a daily basis? Seven years I lived there, and I heard that complaint hundreds of times. Obviously, it means something to those people. If Americans complain about wealth inequality, it is typically along the lines of "how gross that so-and-so makes millions, while there are homeless people." I've never heard Americans say "Oh, well, Mark Zuckerberg makes billions...he's stolen our money!"
I made the comment about Donetsk, as it is my view that those Russian-Ukrainians who believe that latching on to the Motherland think it is a sort of panacea for their problems. However, they are going from one dysfunction to another.
Who would want to stick with Russia? Those who value a better quality of life and economics. While yes a lot of Ukrainians want independence, and they have independence since 1991, Ukraine is basically a failed state, unable to support itself no matter who is in charge.
It would be hard pressed to convince people that yet another revolt is suppose to bring in new found wealth and quality of life, in fact, once those IMF conditions set in, the quality of life is going to sink even more.
It is also hahrd pressed to be convinced the new gov is "for the people", when all they are doing is trying to pass through as many issues as possible before an election, why is this? This gov is not elected, yet approving vital legislation that will impact all people in Ukraine for years to come.
Maybe you never lived over there are in a poor area, but people kind of start getting tired of trying to "stick with it", when they view across the border and see a much better quality of life, one that is within reach if they can manage it.
Well, in spite of what you say and think, it (still) seems obvious to me that probably at least 50% of the population of Ukraine don't want anything to do with Russia, for better or for worse.
As for those who do want to join Russia, I wish them good luck, including your relatives.
What I meant was: the people in Ukraine will suffer one way or another. If they choose to partner-up with Russia more closely, the suffering will continue for quiet a time, without having much prospect for future prosperity. Don't try to tell otherwise. With the EU, the chances of bettering quality of life are much more realistic.
But that's just an opinion of a brainwashed Estonian.
Ok, calling "brainwashed" was a bit harsh on my part, apologies.
It is not "suffering", people act like Russia is a form of Saudi Arabia (who the West is basically in love with) or Afghanistan; it gets a bit tiresome hearing the same false perceptions.
Ukraine is a failed state, it has not been successful since its independence. This revolt was just the breaking point for many people; jsut how many revolts are expected? While Ynaukovich was no saint, he was fairly elected, and people see that a fairly elected president os revolted against, there is jsut no hope among them; what happens if the people who revolted do not like the next elected president? Are they going to revolt again? And jsut seeing the West back a revolt against a democratic process is dis-heartening enough, people are well aware that the West will throw anyone under the bus to accomplsih a polictical objective.
While Russia is by far not the greatest place to live, it sure is the heck better than many places in the world, and a lot better than Ukraine.
Also, Ukraine is not joining the EU, this is not even what any of these agreements are about. I do not know where people gets this "join EU" stuff from. If they ever did, you will see a mass movement of people out of Ukraine to west Europe like what happened in Poland.
There's no debating the fact that people complain about perceived inequality around the world. However, the causes of wealth inequality in Russia and the USA are distinct from one another. It is precisely direct corruption which has caused this great gulf in wealth in Russia. Certainly there is corruption in the US system, but I posit that few would argue that it is corruption that has caused wealth inequality. Besides, as the research I posted illustrates, the situation is heightened in Russia.
Again, if you think that wealth inequality is 'meaningless', then why did I hear Russians complain about the oligarchs who stole "their money", pretty much on a daily basis? Seven years I lived there, and I heard that complaint hundreds of times. Obviously, it means something to those people. If Americans complain about wealth inequality, it is typically along the lines of "how gross that so-and-so makes millions, while there are homeless people." I've never heard Americans say "Oh, well, Mark Zuckerberg makes billions...he's stolen our money!"
I made the comment about Donetsk, as it is my view that those Russian-Ukrainians who believe that latching on to the Motherland think it is a sort of panacea for their problems. However, they are going from one dysfunction to another.
The issue you broght up in this thread has nothing to do with wealth inequality. It is like stating Detroit is better than NYC because Detroit has less wealth inequality. For the topic discussion, wealth equality is a emaning less statistic. Fact is, Russia offers a larger salary and better quality of lfie than Ukraine does. It is Ukraine that is nearly bankrupt, two revolts in ten years, and a lwoers GDP nominal and PPP than Russia has.
Well, in spite of what you say and think, it (still) seems obvious to me that probably at least 50% of the population of Ukraine don't want anything to do with Russia, for better or for worse.
As for those who do want to join Russia, I wish them good luck, including your relatives.
Never stated my relatives want to be part of Russia. They could move there if they wanted to, but choose not to.
Well, Yanukovich was elected fairly, yet that did not stop a minority few people from voerthorwing the gov, then approving legislation impacting everyone in the country for years to come, all the while not being an elected representive of the country.
So, a minority few revolting is OK, but an even larger minority, or in some cases a majority, wanting to join Russia is not OK? Even holding if referendum over the subject, which is more democratic than anything the new Ukraine gov has done?
Never stated my relatives want to be part of Russia. They could move there if they wanted to, but choose not to.
Well, Yanukovich was elected fairly, yet that did not stop a minority few people from voerthorwing the gov, then approving legislation impacting everyone in the country for years to come, all the while not being an elected representive of the country.
So, a minority few revolting is OK, but an even larger minority, or in some cases a majority, wanting to join Russia is not OK? Even holding if referendum over the subject, which is more democratic than anything the new Ukraine gov has done?
I think, people who want to join Russia, should be able to do so and, as I stated in my previous post, I hope, they will.
It's interesting though that your Ukrainian relatives choose to stay in the Ukraine instead of moving to Russia. Is that because they were born in the Ukraine and consider it their home and instead of leaving prefer the part of the Ukraine they live in to become a part of Russia?
Last edited by movingwiththewind; 04-07-2014 at 04:00 PM..
I think, people who want to join Russia, should be able to do so and, as I stated in my previous post, I hope, they will.
It's interesting though that your Ukrainian relatives choose to stay in the Ukraine instead of moving to Russia. Is that because they were born in the Ukraine and consider it their home and instead of leaving prefer the part of the Ukraine they live in to become a part of Russia?
The family originally relocated from the Ukraine area during the Russian Empire out to Siberia and central Asia. So from that time through the USSR, they just stayed there generation after generation. When the USSR broke apart, they find themselves in central Asia, and left there for Ukraine in the mid-90's, along with the mass migration of millions of others out of central Asia.
So while many of them could move to Russia due to family connections, being there for twenty years kind of have them with roots in the area, and the culture there is not near as mobile as in the US; they think going 100km away is some sort of large trip. They also have their business dealing going on and such, so though not financially rich, they can maintain to a degree just fine. Though the grass looks greener in Russia and may be so, it is difficult to make that jump into the unknown.
But they are not at all interested in the grand political game of what is going on, and sort of reflect my thoughts that it is BS of the powers to be making a "us vs them" out of it, and they really cannot believe that it would come down to conflict between Russian and Ukraine, especially considering how many families in Russia and Ukraine are a mix of each other, ethnically and culturally; there are really no firm lines between the two.
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