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I remember some time ago Africa's debt was partly forgiven, why not do that within the EU? It would help several countries, not just Greece.
Well, that's quite problematic. If the Portuguese debt is slashed or partly forgiven, why couldn't the Finnish debt too? Or Belgian or Cypriot? Comes down again to that bad management of the economy is rewarded, while responsible management is punished.
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Originally Posted by Neuling
Who is "we"? Most Greeks did not mess up. Just like the majority of Portuguese, Spaniards, etc. never lived above their means. So naturally they wonder why they should pay the bill...
Well, tax evasion in Greece has been overwhelming, to the point that it made a critical situation even worse. So though not everyone is to blame, many have contributed their small share.
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Originally Posted by bale002
I agree with Neuling that the French and Germans were absolute fools, or sinister, for lending the Greeks so much money. And that there are a lot of innocent people (yes, they did vote for corrupt politicians, but how much choice did they really have?) who are suffering the vices of others.
Yes, what the French and German banks did was utterly irresponsible, but OTH they didn't know the real situation of the Greek economy either, as all stats were cooked.
I don't know how aware the average Greek was either, but there just had to be someone or some organisations who should've raised the question, like "this has to stop or we're going broke".
I can't help but comparing to my country. Our economy hasn't recovered from the financial crisis, and living on debt ATM. Everyone is aware of this, and we all agree that we have to do structural reforms or we're eventually on the same path as many Southern European countries were, even if it might hurt a bit. In the April elections the austerity-supporting parties gained a landslide victory.
The average Greek is not stupid or irresponsible, so I wonder how they just closed their eyes and wiped everything under the map.
They might even adopt the Chinese currency, by Chinese standards the Greek debt is peanuts so that whole mess would not really have an impact on the Chinese currency.
great... to another currency that they can't control? One that most acknowledge gets manipulated a the whims of their leaders? I mean more than the norm.
Well, if gold standard doesn't work, Greece could peg their currency to their tourism? 1 tourist = .00001 drachma? so they would be forced to increase tourism? I wonder how this would be too different than pegging an economy to other things like oil in Russian/middle east/veneuzula? They sell oil, Greece sells tourism? yes, now I'm being silly with ideas because I just have to wait and see like everyone else.
That said, I realize tourism isn't all that Greece does to generate their gdp, but it is a large portion of it.
edit: found this in another article
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12) Why not just bring back the drachma?
The public will have little confidence in the IOUs that the government issues. Probably even
less confidence if Greece opts to officially introduce a new currency. Reintroducing the drachma would be totally illegal under European law and form the basis for a law suit to force Greece out of the European Union (EU). As part of the EU, Greek citizens can travel freely and work anywhere within Europe. Greek goods are also allowed to be sold without being subject to tariffs. Expulsion from the EU would be devastating.
Issuing IOUs which are not officially touted as a currency is a better option for Greece for now.
I didn't realize it was illegal to make a new currency... and what world court would hold them to it anyways? Aside from what it is called, how are IOUs not a form of currency? I mean isn't it already "legal tender" if they are giving it to government workers in place of "money" as payment for their services? Just because it is "in euros" for the IOU demonination, but that's just a "currency" rate at this point, 1 euro = 5 IOU dollars? And sure they could have a lawsuit to force them out of the EU, but then they have to win that suit, if anyone pushed hard enough to try...
It doesn't have the money to fund a war in Ukraine, but that isn't stopping it.
No, Russia did have funds, if taking care of military operation in the East in timely manner
( it wouldn't have been all that expensive,) but it refused to do so out in the open.
Europeans don't lose heart. There is another country staying in line instead of Greece, eagerly awaiting to join you.
The Greeks got the theoretical part right, let's see how it works out in practice.
The meaning of the OXI vote, if it stands, is that the Greeks have expressed confidence in the current government's ability either to negotiate a better deal to stay in the euro or manage a transition, abrupt or not, to a new (old) currency.
That's a big risk to take.
Assuming the OXI vote stands, we have to see the eurozone officials' response now: either
i) allow easier bail-out terms (e.g. some amount of debt forgiveness and longer payback terms, as well as modest primary surplus, no pension cuts, differentiated VAT, and continuing farm subsidies); or
ii) help plan and transition to a new currency (e.g. ECB liquidity for six months or year or so, then off completely at least for a number of years); or
iii) simply and abruptly tell them GFYS and just see how an abrupt transition works out.
We'll have a better idea within the next 48 hours, including what the ECB does tomorrow.
According to AP press reports, if Sargent Schulz of Hogan's Heros fame, er, I mean Martin Schulz, President of the European Parliament, has his way, a summit of eurozone leaders planned for Tuesday should discuss a "humanitarian aid program for Greece ... ordinary citizens, pensioners, sick people or children in kindergarten should not pay a price for the dramatic situation the country is in ... the country needs a humanitarian program immediately."
In my view, that would be the ideal outcome, whereby both creditors and lenders pay the consequences of their follies, while allowing more or less innocent Greeks to start fresh, however modestly, and it would start with the ECB providing small amounts of emergency funding on a day-to-day basis.
But Mr. Schulz is merely the president of an EU institution, and we know that sovereignty lies among the European Council of Ministers, the eurozone group of finance ministers, and the ECB, so those people - let's call them Charlemagne - will probably have the last say: some kind of bail-out style deal could still be worked out.
In the meantime, some weeks ago Mr. Varoufakis, Greece finance minister, mentioned Greece may challenge any attempt by other eurozone members to jettison Greece from the club before the European Court of Justice. But I don't know enough about that institution to determine whether it has jurisdiction and guess whether it has any real political weight. Maybe someone can elucidate.
Anyway, while that would play out, I would still expect some kind of humanitarian program to be implemented, assuming no bail-out style deal, and some sort of emergency funding, even if a trickle, within days or weeks.
No, Russia did have funds, if taking care of military operation in the East in timely manner
( it wouldn't have been all that expensive,) but it refused to do so out in the open.
Europeans don't lose heart. There is another country staying in line instead of Greece, eagerly awaiting to join you.
Ukraine that is.
Somehow I feel a full scale war would be more expensive once you factor in an ongoing occupation, but that is neither here nor there.
With oil prices below what Russia needs to profitably extract and sell its oil, an ideal world would not have Russia incurring the unusual and unexpected expenses such as Crimean pensions, weapons and supplies to the Donbass, and the likely soon to come bankrolling of Greece right now. We can agree on that much can't we?
I'm not sure if this has already been mentioned but I read that one of the conditions laid out to Greece when it joined the Eurozone was that it had to destroy the printing presses for its ex currency, the Drachma. Reason given: membership to the EU is irreversible.
Good thing the Greeks finally woke up and saw reality. The same thing happened in Iceland and they picked up on the situation right away... they are doing great now. This is the best time to start buying Greek stocks; when Argentina did the exact thing their stock market went up 1500% in less that two years. It will be even better and safer in Greece.
Somehow I feel a full scale war would be more expensive once you factor in an ongoing occupation, but that is neither here nor there.
If things would have been taken care back in March-April of the last year, there would have been no "full scale war." Not only Ukrainian army was not prepared for any war with Russia ( it was totally in shambles) but from what Strelkov was saying, Ukrainians (from military) were coming quietly to him, asking confidentially when Russian troops were coming and getting ready to submit their people. ( I am talking about South-East.) As I've said Putin ( who was initially thinking about possibility of such military intervention) decided against it down the line, and I think this tactical mistake will cost him dearly. Soon.
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With oil prices below what Russia needs to profitably extract and sell its oil, an ideal world would not have Russia incurring the unusual and unexpected expenses such as Crimean pensions, weapons and supplies to the Donbass, and the likely soon to come bankrolling of Greece right now. We can agree on that much can't we?
You know, I am not even sure at this point what was/is sound financial approach from Russian side to the whole Crimea/Donbass question, but I do understand that whatever calculations Putin made, they are most likely to backfire.
As for the latest events in Greece - Russians are watching closely. And I don't mean only government and bankers.
It gave Russians some distraction from heated discussions of gay marriages, that Russian social media erupted with lately)))
Quite interesting. Apparently, then, the Poles have a lot more sense and self-honesty than the Portuguese, Italians and Greeks who also should have stayed out of the euro for 10, 20, even 40 years.
I agree with Neuling that the French and Germans were absolute fools, or sinister, for lending the Greeks so much money. And that there are a lot of innocent people (yes, they did vote for corrupt politicians, but how much choice did they really have?) who are suffering the vices of others.
So may both borrowers and lenders deal with the consequences, to more or less extent.
The Greeks paid the American investment bank Goldman Sachs a lot of money to hide their true debt.
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1 tourist = .00001 drachma? so they would be forced to increase tourism? I wonder how this would be too different than pegging an economy to other things like oil in Russian/middle east/veneuzula? They sell oil, Greece sells tourism? yes, now I'm being silly with ideas because I just have to wait and see like everyone else. 
