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The Anglo-American perception of this economical field is rather different from the German? or continental European one. I have studied economics in Germany and so for me it's clear that the austerity policies is the right one
The people who call themselves "Keynesians" are nothing of the sort. Keynes said that during boom times, governments should put back surpluses into a "rainy day account". Then during lean economic times, government should use that previous surplus to pump liquidity into the economy. Makes sense to me.
The bastardized version of Keynesian economics people like Krugman champion today is to always run deficits and then during an economic bust to run even bigger deficits.
Austerity works for me in my personal life. Not that I'm a pauper, but I am generous with what I put away in savings and have practically zero debt. Immigrants do the same thing; that's how they get ahead. Rich people from established families do the same thing too, that's how they keep getting richer.
If it works for people in their personal lives, why shouldn't it work for nations?
Right. Never mind all the phony economic statistics Greece conjured up, blame the victim.
Who's the victim here? Goldman Sachs not only cooked the books for them, they also loaned them money while they should never had because since then the debt was unreachable and they also made billions out of it. Now that the loans can't be paid everybody wonders why? They and other banks took the risk, lend them money knowing very well they couldn't pay it back, made billions out of it and now that they can't pay back they bust the people's backs with austerity and even want to raid public held institutions. Talking about thieves!
Germany, the US and the UK have self-sustaining economies. The Greek economy was a bubble largely funded by debt. That's why Greek GDP shrunk so much - it has much less to do with austerity.
Sure, sustained by massive bank fraud and their own debt.
Sure, sustained by massive bank fraud and their own debt.
Who's forcing the gayreeks to borrow?? Just live your peasant lifestyle with your mules and your goats and there won't be any problem, will there?
But they want the modern conveniences that the west has. They borrow, get in over their heads and then they complain that they can't get ahead.
My last trip to Europe was Columbus ==> Cincinnati ==> Amsterdam ==> Thessoloniki. I took the train through Greek Macedonia and stopped in some of the backwater towns. It was obvious that a lot of money was spent to clean them up. I took a cab into Bitola from Florina (no train connection); and it was a little rough around the edges in comparison. Not that Macedonia was bad, it just looked like the blue collar working class part of an American town (with Mediterranean architecture).
These are cites of really the same level of status. The Macedonian cities shouldn't be as rough as they are. (It will take 20 years to get to where they should be.) But the Greek Macedonian cities shouldn't be as nice as they are, either.
They maxed out the German credit card and now the tab is coming due.
Sure, sustained by massive bank fraud and their own debt.
Why don't you try to apply for every credit card you can get, max it out, stop paying it? Then run around complaining that it was the mean bankers' fault that they gave you the loans in the first place won't give you any more money so you can live in the standard you are accustomed to live in!!! I guarantee you won't get a lot of sympathy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth
It takes two to tango.
Unless you can show me a picture where the bankers held a gun to the heads of the Greek government to take out more loans than they could afford to pay, I'm inclined to laugh at your bitter, jealous blaming the bankers.
Really what happened was that gayreece suddenly became just like a lotto winner. Poor for most of their existence and suddenly a lot of money dropped in their laps and they had a party and spent it. Now they ran through the lotto money and it's back to their depressing reality once again.
I don't have sympathy for the banks (which are really the nations of the EU which now own all that debt). But I have even less sympathy for the gayreeks.
Last edited by PerryMason614; 07-18-2015 at 04:42 PM..
Why don't you try to apply for every credit card you can get, max it out, stop paying it, and then run around complaining that it was the mean bankers' fault that they gave you the loans in the first place won't give you any more money so you can live in the standard you are accustomed to live in. I guarantee you won't get a lot of sympathy.
Unless you can show me a picture where the bankers held a gun to the heads of the Greek government to take out more loans than they could afford to pay, I'm inclined to laugh at your bitter, jealous blaming the bankers.
Really what happened was that gayreece suddenly became just like a lotto winner. Poor for most of their existence and suddenly a lot of money dropped in their laps and they had a party and spent it. Now they ran through the lotto money and it's back to their depressing reality once again.
I don't have sympathy for the banks (which are really the nations of the EU which now own all that debt). But I have even less sympathy for the gayreeks.
That happened to several countries; Latvia, Lithuania and Spain, to name a few.
Sure, Greece falsified their info (as I commented earlier on the thread), but it should have been obvious to anyone that their application required closer scrutiny, if not a loud guffaw. Similar to Bulgaria.... What was the rush to include marginal economies, anyway? I think it's useful to look at all sides of the story.
Who's forcing the gayreeks to borrow?? Just live your peasant lifestyle with your mules and your goats and there won't be any problem, will there?
But they want the modern conveniences that the west has. They borrow, get in over their heads and then they complain that they can't get ahead.
My last trip to Europe was Columbus ==> Cincinnati ==> Amsterdam ==> Thessoloniki. I took the train through Greek Macedonia and stopped in some of the backwater towns. It was obvious that a lot of money was spent to clean them up. I took a cab into Bitola from Florina (no train connection); and it was a little rough around the edges in comparison. Not that Macedonia was bad, it just looked like the blue collar working class part of an American town (with Mediterranean architecture).
These are cites of really the same level of status. The Macedonian cities shouldn't be as rough as they are. (It will take 20 years to get to where they should be.) But the Greek Macedonian cities shouldn't be as nice as they are, either.
They maxed out the German credit card and now the tab is coming due.
gayreeks? Really? Can't spell now or do you want me to say something else to you? Greece is in the west is it not? What German credit card? The one that is filled with fraudulent bank money in the first place? Those poor Germans. They need to scam others to fatten their bankster's accounts.
You have no clue where the money came from to build up you are just assuming. There's nothing wrong with building towns and infrastructure unlike here in the US where smaller town main streets are left to decay and our national infrastructure is falling apart. . But wait, aren't we super rich?
I guess now you would have to say the same thing about Italy, Spain, Portugal, France, USA, etc.
Who's forcing the gayreeks to borrow?? Just live your peasant lifestyle with your mules and your goats and there won't be any problem, will there?
But they want the modern conveniences that the west has. They borrow, get in over their heads and then they complain that they can't get ahead.
My last trip to Europe was Columbus ==> Cincinnati ==> Amsterdam ==> Thessoloniki. I took the train through Greek Macedonia and stopped in some of the backwater towns. It was obvious that a lot of money was spent to clean them up. I took a cab into Bitola from Florina (no train connection); and it was a little rough around the edges in comparison. Not that Macedonia was bad, it just looked like the blue collar working class part of an American town (with Mediterranean architecture).
These are cites of really the same level of status. The Macedonian cities shouldn't be as rough as they are. (It will take 20 years to get to where they should be.) But the Greek Macedonian cities shouldn't be as nice as they are, either.
They maxed out the German credit card and now the tab is coming due.
haha Bitola.. only a Fyromian would visit that.. that explains the animosity and calling them gayreeks.
Of course austerity will strain the economic growth, but only in the next years. Afther that it will get better. In my opinion the Anglo-American perception isn't sustainable in the long run. The GDP is growing very strong, but the average people do not participate in this economic upswing. Especially in the UK, the recent strong GDP growth is in my opinion just inflated. The current account deficit gets bigger and bigger. That isn't sustainable. It's maybe a little bit different in the U.S. The fracking boom has helped a lot in the U.S. But it seems that the average American is unable to participate to the economic upswing. The Anglo-American way leads in my opinion to more income inequality. The middle class is struggling to make ends meet. Either in the U.S. and the UK the price level seems extremely inflated. I am pretty sure, that the Anglo-American way is not the right way. GDP growth in the US or in the UK often doesn't seem real. There was an interesting article about that:
I don't think income distribution is connected to monetary policy; yes the US is more unequal but that has nothing to do with austerity or no austerity. As for Greece, its debt is so huge perhaps it can't practically borrow for a stimulus. But I was referring to Finland; with a debt to GDP ratio of 53% and great credit rating. It can afford to borrow to boost the economy.
Any evidence of that? Especially without being able to devalue its currency, I suspect it may stay trapped in stagnation. As for Greece, its GDP declined so much its current account balance is worth relative to GDP.
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