Why are the French attacks blamed on foreigners when the first terrorist turns out out to be French? (Russian, Dutch)
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The French colonized Morocco, so why the screams that Moroccans now wish to return the favors? The largest North African group in France are the Algerians.
I find it funny that a group of people who roamed the world and colonized people now scream that others now migrate to Europe.
If they didn't want this to happen, maybe they should have stayed home.
That's cute, except Northern Africa colonized Europe, first. Lest we forget that French colonization occurred just shortly after Northern Africans had spent HUNDREDS AND HUNDREDS of years colonizing southern Europe.
In the end, though, migrants in "old world' countries will NEVER be considered the same as the indigenous. Nationality changes. Ethnicity does not.
The US, Canada, South America... these are all places where you can BECOME the nationality because they are all immigrant nations. Being French is a matter of thousands of years of heritage and cultural belonging. Same as being Chinese. Or of a particular ethnicity in Africa.
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Originally Posted by CaribNY
BTW to imply that South Africa wasn't greatly disrupted by Europe is a joke. It is an African country.
Well actually it wasn't any country at all, prior. South Africans go to great lengths to demonstrate that the arrival of European colonists coincided roughly with the migration of peoples from other parts of Africa to teh same region.
The USA doesn't go to Africa to recruit engineers, accountants, or doctors. They DECIDE to go to the USA.
And the reason they go to the USA?
Yep, precisely - it's a big country that doesn't produce enough of its own (otherwise - why take the new-comers with these occupations) - that's number one, and number two - America is a country that's built on immigration on "no-one's land" ( since the land has been "cleared" from its original inhabitants.)
So it's a nation built on the BASIS of immigration, and that's why engineers and accountants are welcome there from any country of the world, as much as "street-cleaners."
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They do NOT go to France. Street sweepers go to France.
Why SHOULD they go to France? Unlike the US, France is a country that's not based on immigration - it's based on a nationality and its NATIONAL history and culture. And that nationality produces enough of its own engineers and doctors ( as Europeans usually do.) So WHY WOULD THEY WANT African engineers, when France should serve the interests first of all of her own people and her own nation, and therefore to keep those jobs for her own nationals first of all? If the street-cleaners want to come - that's fine, and even not too many of those, since France is really small country comparably to the US.
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This is why Parisians are unhappy with immigration,
Yes, they don't want it and they don't need it all that much, from Islamic countries in particular and for a good reason.
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and New Yorkers boast about how diverse the cities is, and how well many NON WHITE immigrants are doing. When one uses various gauges of how well immigrants are doing in NYC, black and Asian immigrants do as well, or better than does the average US born resident of NYC. Accept that fact.
By all means - let New-York boast of whatever it likes. Paris is not New-York and never will be, nor it wants to be New -York. Accept that fact.
Also why not mention that one of these ministers was the rep from Guyane, so achieved upward mobility and experience in gov't that she would NOT have achieved, had her parents migrated to France, with her having to grow up in Paris, instead of Cayenne.
This woman was part of Sarkozy's government (she has later disagreed with him on several points and is now vice president of another conservative party). She was born in Senegal and her family moved to Paris at the age of 8, the very path you just described.
I'm not saying France is a beacon of progressism and doesn't have issues at integrating its minorities. As you said, the higher spheres of the corporate world are still overwhelmingly of European origins because of the glass ceiling phenomenon. One notable example would be Carlos Ghosn, the CEO of Renault-Nissan, who was born in Brazil, grew up in Lebanon, moved to France to pursue his higher education and spent his career there. He has the three passports.
Like with everything when someone asks what you are they are asking what your genes are. A fish born in Sweden is not Swedish just like a white guy born in Japan is not Japanese. Japanese is an ethnic group based on shared genes. It may get confusing in countries like the U.S. but countries with a long standing history have a dominant ethnic group for which the country is named for.
Just because these Arabs were given residency documents or even citizenship does not make them Belgian, French or whatever. They are Arab.
Like with everything when someone asks what you are they are asking what your genes are. A fish born in Sweden is not Swedish just like a white guy born in Japan is not Japanese. Japanese is an ethnic group based on shared genes. It may get confusing in countries like the U.S. but countries with a long standing history have a dominant ethnic group for which the country is named for.
Just because these Arabs were given residency documents or even citizenship does not make them Belgian, French or whatever. They are Arab.
I don't agree with this.
Is Manual Valls French? Or is he considered Spanish/Italian? Or you don't make a difference between being French and being Spanish?
Or are you saying the French identity can be passed to other Europeans, just not people from outside of it?
So in your mind, hypothetically a person of Arab origin, although born and educated in France, doesn't speak Arabic, or believes in Islam, does everything the French way, will still always be an Arab, because that's in his genes?
I think culture defines a person, not "genes". Your example of Japan sounds convincing, but only because the Japan born and raise white people are almost non-existent. If Japan does become multi-culture like Canada or the US, you will have no trouble identifying a white Japanese as Japanese, just like Michael Jordan is an American and nothing else. There are plenty of people in US/Canada that identify them as Americans/Canadians, not Chinese (how can you when they don't speak the language and knows almost nothing about China).
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Originally Posted by botticelli
I don't agree with this.
Is Manual Valls French? Or is he considered Spanish/Italian? Or you don't make a difference between being French and being Spanish?
Or are you saying the French identity can be passed to other Europeans, just not people from outside of it?
So in your mind, hypothetically a person of Arab origin, although born and educated in France, doesn't speak Arabic, or believes in Islam, does everything the French way, will still always be an Arab, because that's in his genes?
I think culture defines a person, not "genes". Your example of Japan sounds convincing, but only because the Japan born and raise white people are almost non-existent. If Japan does become multi-culture like Canada or the US, you will have no trouble identifying a white Japanese as Japanese, just like Michael Jordan is an American and nothing else. There are plenty of people in US/Canada that identify them as Americans/Canadians, not Chinese (how can you when they don't speak the language and knows almost nothing about China).
Very true, at leat here in France, where frenchness has never been linked with a genetic concept. Been french is a question of citizenship and cultural belonging.
Very true, at leat here in France, where frenchness has never been linked with a genetic concept. Been french is a question of citizenship and cultural belonging.
I know this could be controversial, but I particularly like the French way of cultural assimilation. If you come to France, then you are expected to be French, speak French and act French, instead of encouraging all this cultural diversity thing and having all those Chinatowns and little Armenians.
France is probably the most culturally homogenous country in Europe, with less stronger regional culture and language competition from every corner due to its centralized tradition from Louis XIV to De Gaulle, and I think it is good.
I know this could be controversial, but I particularly like the French way of cultural assimilation. If you come to France, then you are expected to be French, speak French and act French, instead of encouraging all this cultural diversity thing and having all those Chinatowns and little Armenians.
France is probably the most culturally homogenous country in Europe, with less stronger regional culture and language competition from every corner due to its centralized tradition from Louis XIV to De Gaulle, and I think it is good.
Not all of this is good. Many regional languages were repressed and it was not until the 1970's they started to revive those languages. Doesn't seem fair or democratic to me.
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